The Million Dollar Challenge

MissJo · 02-05-2012

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

A skeptic sent me this way after I mentioned I read Tarot cards, and I can't say I'm particularly interested in applying though. I did a quick search on Tarot and I know it's been discussed and possibly tested before, but since no one has ever proved anything to these guys... I'm honestly a little skeptical about how much of a chance they're giving.

I mean, plenty of people here can say that they believe in Tarot and that it gives accurate answers, even more outside of this site. I find it a little odd that not a single person has made it past the preliminary test...

What are your thoughts on this?

I told the skeptic pretty much the same thing, with my experience I find this too suspicious to waste my time on, and knowing me I wouldn't be able to handle the pressure and would probably mess up anyway. The million dollars would be nice, but I somehow doubt that this is a very fair challenge...

**SunChariot** · 03-05-2012

My opinion is that there are two kinds of things in life: spiiritual things and ...everthing else.
Anything that does not really fall under the category of "spiritual in nature" can in theory be proven, in a way that we can all agree on. Even if science or mathematics or whatever field can prove it has not yet discovered the proof, it is out there and can be proven.

Then you have the spiritual things that cannot be proven. Not in the sense of irrefutatble proof that once people see it they cannot deny it.

Spirutual things are not meant to be prooven as they are literally meant to run on faith. If we could proove them beyond any shadow of a doubt, there would litreally be no possibily in life for faith in what we cannot proove and this is, I believe, a part of life that we are not meant to lose. It is part of our life experience to face the spiritual and come to terms with it in a personal lelve.

To me offering someone a million dollars to proove that Tarot works is along the lines of offereing them a millions dollars to proove G-d exists. If they want scientific proof, which they seem to, it cannot be done. That does not mean the spiritual side of life doesn't exist and isn't real, just that spiritual things do not lend themselves to being proven in that way. And not to skeptics.

To find the proof that Tarot works you have to open your mind and soul and let the rest go. Then you will see what it can be and do. The more you let go, the more you can see of that,.

But someone who si trying to pay people to proove it to him scientifically will never get the proof he needs because he is in the wrong mindframe/headspace to see. In fact, someone offering such a challenge is already sure that it cannot be prooven to him. Or he would not offer so much money. You cannot get proof when you are in a close-minded state. He is in his mind, when the only proof can come from his heart and soul.

Tarot, as all things spiritual, is something we can only proove to ourselves on a persponal basis. And it can be very well proven on a personal basis. But this kind of thing does not lend itself to the scientific kind of proof. Spiritaul proofs are the kind of things that has to be doen on an individual basis, where each person has to come to it on his own, from the inside of himself.

Non-spiritual things can be proven from outside ourselves in the outside world. Spirtual things (and Tarot is one as the answers are coming from an intelligent source), can only be proven on the inside, from inside ourselves as they are related to our connection to something greater and that connection itself comes from the inside of us, from our hearts and souls.

My belief is that the person offering thsi challenge will never find the proof he seeks as he is looking in the wrong place and it cannot ever be found there. Ir can be found elsewhere, but he is not even imagining that it seems to me...

Moreover, it is my belief (and some may agree or not) that if there is a G-d, and I personally beleive there is, he would not want this man to get his proof. I beliieve life is meant to contain these things that require faith of us.

And that Tarot is meant to be one of the myteries of life that we do need to proove to ourselves on an individual basis. If this is true, it means that no one woudl be allowed to come up with anything that could proove it to this person as he is not meant to have such proof. THat means that even if there were cards that would proove it to him in some scientific way, those cards would not ever come up. I believe that the reason Tarot IS how hard to prove scientifically in an irrefuable way is that it is not meant to be proven in that way. At least not yet, in our current state of spiritual develipmewnt.

Babs

ghost271 · 03-05-2012

I just skimmed through some of it. Right off the bat I'd need to pay my doctor $80 to write the letter. I havent been on TV, in the newspaper, or had an article written about me so that rules me out as well. I imagine the tests they'd want to run would be made to make you fail. They'd more than likely want such intricate details that even a persons mother wouldnt know.
Theres an intristing book called, 'The AfterLife Experiments'.
They ran a ton of tests on Psychics and had amazing results.

Sinduction · 03-05-2012

I really do think it comes down to the fact that science has not yet caught up. There have always been things that cannot be explained because science and technology just isn't there. How long did we believe the earth was flat?

What most people don't realize is that this doesn't mean these things don't exists, it just means there is no measurement for it yet. Even for things we think we know, there is a lot left unanswered.

I have this debate all the time with people that want to tell me I can't know what I know. Even when I've shown them that I do know. It doesn't matter, there is no way for me to prove it to them, just as there is no way for them to disprove it to me. I like to bring out medical examples for them when they get to uppity with me. What about when doctors say someone will never walk again, and then that person is running marathons? No one has an explanation but it's not called into question whether that person healed or not.

Melia · 03-05-2012

The things we label under the banner of 'spiritual' do not need to be faith based alone. I think there is indeed a means to measure SOME OF these things, although if someone is expecting Randi to help them with this I would look elsewhere.

Science does not accept some methods of measurement. There seem to be very few scientific studies carried out on some of these measuring methods themselves - astrology for example - I've seen 2 studies .... OR these methods of measuring are not in the public domain, or even widely known about, or even fully understood.

Science demands, within THEIR current parameters, that multiple tests produce 'repeatable' results .... AND there is no 'beyond a reasonable doubt' criteria when it comes spiritual matters - even a 99.8% probability appears not to be acceptable here.

I cannot and do not accept that spiritual things are not meant to be proven. I know that evidence or proof is there; but maybe only for the seekers - those who look and really want proof.

Granted Randi is on his own journey, but I think he takes such a one-sided stance - that of only wishing to prove himself right. He's been around for years, and I've seen how he works, having watched a few documentaries in which he featured. The one that really sticks in my mind was the one concerning proving homoeopathy ..... that homoeopathy turned out to be bunkum was no surprise given the way the testing was carried out. (I did not even click on the link given above as I do not wish to give that website any hits). Babs has it right .... Randi is not interested in the truth as much as 'his' truth, and so he will never find/see any evidence (nor even acknowledge it should it be there). And, working within certain parameters only is NOT how spirit works.

Like sinduction, and no doubt many others, I've had this debate with a few individuals over the years, including a scientist of late; except that I am in a position to provide proof of how it is that I know. However for anyone who has a long held belief/view/understanding that something is not measurable, or that something can only be tested within existing scientific parameters, they are not in the best position to see the truth. If the elephant in the room is located in one corner of the room and the scientist/skeptic is located in the far opposite corner, then one may think if they just moved to that corner of the room where the elephant is located this will allow them to observe it the most clearly .... right? No .... at ceiling height is where EVERYTHING going on in the room can be viewed.

Unless skeptics like Randi and scientists change their perspective a little on how they might investigate spiritual matters differently, the truth will never be revealed to them. It is only a person's limited human thinking, and not a lack of evidence/proof, that prevents them from seeing and knowing the truth.

Melia · 03-05-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghost271

Theres an intristing book called, 'The AfterLife Experiments'.
They ran a ton of tests on Psychics and had amazing results.

Yes .... interesting reading, but surprise surprise Randi of 'who wants to be a millionaire' fame, is not a fan of Schwartz.

vee · 03-05-2012

From a scientific point of view, I think it's a fabulous contest. Empirical understanding of paranormal or occult abilities would be fascinating.

I don't believe that my Tarot reading abilities are supernatural or psychic based, so this wouldn't apply to me, but for those who do, I wouldn't recommend applying for this unless your only desire to was to give scientific context to your abilities. If you're comfortable with your understanding of the world, who cares with James Randi or anyone else thinks, you know?

**tarotbear** · 04-05-2012

If in all these years no one has made it past the preliminary test ... what does this tell you?

MissJo Citizen Join Date: 17 Aug 2010 Location: Washington state, USA Posts: 1,291	The Million Dollar Challenge http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html A skeptic sent me this way after I mentioned I read Tarot cards, and I can't say I'm particularly interested in applying though. I did a quick search on Tarot and I know it's been discussed and possibly tested before, but since no one has ever proved anything to these guys... I'm honestly a little skeptical about how much of a chance they're giving. I mean, plenty of people here can say that they believe in Tarot and that it gives accurate answers, even more outside of this site. I find it a little odd that not a single person has made it past the preliminary test... What are your thoughts on this? I told the skeptic pretty much the same thing, with my experience I find this too suspicious to waste my time on, and knowing me I wouldn't be able to handle the pressure and would probably mess up anyway. The million dollars would be nice, but I somehow doubt that this is a very fair challenge... __________________ “The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” Albert Einstein

02-05-2012	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #1

SunChariot Citizen Join Date: 29 Oct 2004 Location: Quebec, Canada Posts: 8,877	My opinion is that there are two kinds of things in life: spiiritual things and ...everthing else. Anything that does not really fall under the category of "spiritual in nature" can in theory be proven, in a way that we can all agree on. Even if science or mathematics or whatever field can prove it has not yet discovered the proof, it is out there and can be proven. Then you have the spiritual things that cannot be proven. Not in the sense of irrefutatble proof that once people see it they cannot deny it. Spirutual things are not meant to be prooven as they are literally meant to run on faith. If we could proove them beyond any shadow of a doubt, there would litreally be no possibily in life for faith in what we cannot proove and this is, I believe, a part of life that we are not meant to lose. It is part of our life experience to face the spiritual and come to terms with it in a personal lelve. To me offering someone a million dollars to proove that Tarot works is along the lines of offereing them a millions dollars to proove G-d exists. If they want scientific proof, which they seem to, it cannot be done. That does not mean the spiritual side of life doesn't exist and isn't real, just that spiritual things do not lend themselves to being proven in that way. And not to skeptics. To find the proof that Tarot works you have to open your mind and soul and let the rest go. Then you will see what it can be and do. The more you let go, the more you can see of that,. But someone who si trying to pay people to proove it to him scientifically will never get the proof he needs because he is in the wrong mindframe/headspace to see. In fact, someone offering such a challenge is already sure that it cannot be prooven to him. Or he would not offer so much money. You cannot get proof when you are in a close-minded state. He is in his mind, when the only proof can come from his heart and soul. Tarot, as all things spiritual, is something we can only proove to ourselves on a persponal basis. And it can be very well proven on a personal basis. But this kind of thing does not lend itself to the scientific kind of proof. Spiritaul proofs are the kind of things that has to be doen on an individual basis, where each person has to come to it on his own, from the inside of himself. Non-spiritual things can be proven from outside ourselves in the outside world. Spirtual things (and Tarot is one as the answers are coming from an intelligent source), can only be proven on the inside, from inside ourselves as they are related to our connection to something greater and that connection itself comes from the inside of us, from our hearts and souls. My belief is that the person offering thsi challenge will never find the proof he seeks as he is looking in the wrong place and it cannot ever be found there. Ir can be found elsewhere, but he is not even imagining that it seems to me... Moreover, it is my belief (and some may agree or not) that if there is a G-d, and I personally beleive there is, he would not want this man to get his proof. I beliieve life is meant to contain these things that require faith of us. And that Tarot is meant to be one of the myteries of life that we do need to proove to ourselves on an individual basis. If this is true, it means that no one woudl be allowed to come up with anything that could proove it to this person as he is not meant to have such proof. THat means that even if there were cards that would proove it to him in some scientific way, those cards would not ever come up. I believe that the reason Tarot IS how hard to prove scientifically in an irrefuable way is that it is not meant to be proven in that way. At least not yet, in our current state of spiritual develipmewnt. Babs __________________ "Although science stops at the borders of logic, nature does not. It blossoms even where no theories have as yet penetrated." C.G. Jung "Love this world with the joy of a child, because anything else is only make believe" (told to me in a meditation) Last edited by SunChariot; 03-05-2012 at 14:10.

03-05-2012	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #2

Sinduction Citizen Join Date: 28 Feb 2007 Location: oHIo Posts: 5,721	I really do think it comes down to the fact that science has not yet caught up. There have always been things that cannot be explained because science and technology just isn't there. How long did we believe the earth was flat? What most people don't realize is that this doesn't mean these things don't exists, it just means there is no measurement for it yet. Even for things we think we know, there is a lot left unanswered. I have this debate all the time with people that want to tell me I can't know what I know. Even when I've shown them that I do know. It doesn't matter, there is no way for me to prove it to them, just as there is no way for them to disprove it to me. I like to bring out medical examples for them when they get to uppity with me. What about when doctors say someone will never walk again, and then that person is running marathons? No one has an explanation but it's not called into question whether that person healed or not. __________________ I don't believe in luck but I do subscribe to the theory of horribly inconvenient coincidences. ~Timmy Turner PDR 2009/2010 ~ Transparent Tarot 78 Weeks ~ Vargo's Gothic

03-05-2012	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #4

Melia Citizen Join Date: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Australia Posts: 330	The things we label under the banner of 'spiritual' do not need to be faith based alone. I think there is indeed a means to measure SOME OF these things, although if someone is expecting Randi to help them with this I would look elsewhere. Science does not accept some methods of measurement. There seem to be very few scientific studies carried out on some of these measuring methods themselves - astrology for example - I've seen 2 studies .... OR these methods of measuring are not in the public domain, or even widely known about, or even fully understood. Science demands, within THEIR current parameters, that multiple tests produce 'repeatable' results .... AND there is no 'beyond a reasonable doubt' criteria when it comes spiritual matters - even a 99.8% probability appears not to be acceptable here. I cannot and do not accept that spiritual things are not meant to be proven. I know that evidence or proof is there; but maybe only for the seekers - those who look and really want proof. Granted Randi is on his own journey, but I think he takes such a one-sided stance - that of only wishing to prove himself right. He's been around for years, and I've seen how he works, having watched a few documentaries in which he featured. The one that really sticks in my mind was the one concerning proving homoeopathy ..... that homoeopathy turned out to be bunkum was no surprise given the way the testing was carried out. (I did not even click on the link given above as I do not wish to give that website any hits). Babs has it right .... Randi is not interested in the truth as much as 'his' truth, and so he will never find/see any evidence (nor even acknowledge it should it be there). And, working within certain parameters only is NOT how spirit works. Like sinduction, and no doubt many others, I've had this debate with a few individuals over the years, including a scientist of late; except that I am in a position to provide proof of how it is that I know. However for anyone who has a long held belief/view/understanding that something is not measurable, or that something can only be tested within existing scientific parameters, they are not in the best position to see the truth. If the elephant in the room is located in one corner of the room and the scientist/skeptic is located in the far opposite corner, then one may think if they just moved to that corner of the room where the elephant is located this will allow them to observe it the most clearly .... right? No .... at ceiling height is where EVERYTHING going on in the room can be viewed. Unless skeptics like Randi and scientists change their perspective a little on how they might investigate spiritual matters differently, the truth will never be revealed to them. It is only a person's limited human thinking, and not a lack of evidence/proof, that prevents them from seeing and knowing the truth. Last edited by Melia; 03-05-2012 at 21:24.

03-05-2012	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #5

tarotbear One of the original 100 members Join Date: 05 Aug 2001 Location: The Naugatuck Valley, CT Posts: 7,209	If in all these years no one has made it past the preliminary test ... what does this tell you? __________________ I don't lead the parade - I AM THE PARADE! This is not rocket surgery, ya know! Bury the past - and move on to a new tomorrow.

04-05-2012	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #8

ghost271 Citizen Join Date: 18 Oct 2003 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 302	I just skimmed through some of it. Right off the bat I'd need to pay my doctor $80 to write the letter. I havent been on TV, in the newspaper, or had an article written about me so that rules me out as well. I imagine the tests they'd want to run would be made to make you fail. They'd more than likely want such intricate details that even a persons mother wouldnt know. Theres an intristing book called, 'The AfterLife Experiments'. They ran a ton of tests on Psychics and had amazing results.

03-05-2012	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #3

vee Citizen Join Date: 26 Oct 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 1,499	From a scientific point of view, I think it's a fabulous contest. Empirical understanding of paranormal or occult abilities would be fascinating. I don't believe that my Tarot reading abilities are supernatural or psychic based, so this wouldn't apply to me, but for those who do, I wouldn't recommend applying for this unless your only desire to was to give scientific context to your abilities. If you're comfortable with your understanding of the world, who cares with James Randi or anyone else thinks, you know?

03-05-2012	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #7

Support the Forum via Google Adsense
	#ADS