The Mary-El Tarot: A whole new level of Tarot?

[Bat Chicken]

Originally Posted by MiShell

I know!
That is, how Mary sees it.
But really - is your body your own hell?
ARE you ever away from the divine?

Are you ever away from the Divine? Yes and No.
I am not sure it is the body's fault as Christian dogma suggests, but we can remove ourselves mentally from the Divine. I think the 5's are that moment when we feel, think, express that disconnection from the divine/ourselves. That is not to say the Divine is far away because as you (MiShell) said already, it is our own Soul - always there - always us, even if we fail to experience it. This deck seems to be a visual expression of the paths to it and from it and the cycle of the whole - the EXPERIENCE of BEING - Qabalah in short.

Your suggestion that the 5's are the center of the two extremes is interesting though. I might suggest that it is, in fact, the opposite. The one's and ten's are closer together than the 5's. The fives are the edge of the sphere so to speak.The horsemen simply are the end of the cycle. The end sits next to and is the beginning.

After all, we live in linear time even if we can conceive it to be otherwise, we perceive and experience it largely as linear (ETA - or circular if you like - either way it is a path). Even the exceptions (I know what you're thinking MiShell! ) are still the exception no the rule, so to speak. The wise will say that after the vision, you must collect water, cook food and clean the house, etc. I know I have the quote way wrong, but you get the idea...

Originally Posted by Debra

I think it reflects a very dualistic Christian view. The body is temporary, stained by original sin; the soul is eternal. The body leads you into sin with its urges and needs. Damn the body! so to speak. The overall feeling I get from this deck is that it is a battle cry against Christianity.

That battle cry is against a narrow minded Christian Church dogma. I would disagree that is is a blanket statement on Christianity. Let's be careful not to toss the baby out with the bathwater.

Originally Posted by Debra

For example, the Devil isn't "wildness and temptation" like in a traditional deck--it's constraint and order.

Love this! Yes!!

Originally Posted by Mi-Shell

Yes, I am with you and Alta here. Today I drew the 3 of cups and - it is sooo - un-MaryEl- ??
Beautiful simple image, but it could be from any deck and reminds me of the Vision Quest.

I completely disagree with the idea that it is unMARY EL. The Vision Quest is pretty Thoth based as with much of the Mary El, so I can see why the comparison.

That waterfall has split in three and looks like the waterfall behind the Fool, materially evolved. I say materially for obvious reasons! Take a closer look at the the Fool. Do you see it? That wispy, misty landscape... It's perfect. After all we are following a progression - a linear expression of an indescribable whole. I have other thoughts on that but I'd just be repeating my post in the Study Group for the 3 of Cups.

Originally Posted by Mi-Shell

Thanks for writing that, Debra!
Exactly that is, what I see as limiting in how I personally can work with this deck...

.....
...Or have we- or at least some of us, to here rise above the limited and limiting vision of the artist?

What are you saying with that last statement?

I can see that if you reject the dualist experience as a way of understanding unity it would be difficult to use personally. But that cannot be an overarching criticism of the deck, nor does it condemn those that find it useful as missing the point or being limited by it. It is presenting one theory to illuminate the same one you live by. If you perceive limits, that IS personal. And that's fine! We are all entitled....

~~~~~~~~~~~
Looking at the overall question this thread raised about the importance of the Mary El - well - time will tell. But I think it is a magnificent synthesis of the common threads of the big "3", presented in powerful visionary art. Like LeFanu says, we always hope for the artist/poet greater than Shakespeare. In the end they are all saying the same thing. It is all about how well the story is told. In that sense the Mary El is in the highest class.

[RunningWild]

I can't be put off this deck as I was another deck, the study of which took an uncomfortable turn when a member of the forum took it places I didn't feel it needed to go.
I didn't stick around to argue about it. And I hope to one day return to study that particular deck.

Is it a whole new level of Tarot? It may be. It's definitely one artist's vision and understanding of it. Is it Spiritual? I don't use tarot to further my spirituality or my understanding of the Divine, I have other resources for that, but I would say that given some of the information on the artist's process (the meditations, the dreams) that it was a spiritual journey for her. That's enough to make it fascinating to me.

I'm not seeing anything remotely anti-Christian about the deck. I don't even see anything anti-religion in general. I see archetypes, which I suppose is really what any tarot artist is striving for.

Despite having never read anything by Crowley even though I own a Thoth and a couple Thoth-y decks, I understand the 0 = 2 concept. I don't know if I'll incorporate that into my readings or not. I doubt that I would deem it important enough to mention to anyone I read.

There are stylistic differences apparent in the pictures but I don't believe that there was more than one artist. The variety lends itself to the meaning of the cards, enhancing them. Just my two cents.

I've spent hours pouring over the decks available for viewing on this forum, hoping the whole time that I would find one that struck out at me as having that ...edge..that I hoped for. While I hesitate to say that the Mary-El is "the one" it definitely has me mesmerized and likely will do for some time.

[Bat Chicken]

Originally Posted by MiShell

...Or have we- or at least some of us, to here rise above the limited and limiting vision of the artist?

Originally Posted by Bat Chicken

What are you saying with that last statement?

I was hoping for an answer to this. Maybe you can clear this up for me. What exactly are you trying to say?

[Sulis]

Originally Posted by Bat Chicken

I was hoping for an answer to this. Maybe you can clear this up for me. What exactly are you trying to say?

Originally Posted by Debra

I think it reflects a very dualistic Christian view. The body is temporary, stained by original sin; the soul is eternal. The body leads you into sin with its urges and needs. Damn the body! so to speak. The overall feeling I get from this deck is that it is a battle cry against Christianity. For example, the Devil isn't "wildness and temptation" like in a traditional deck--it's constraint and order.

Originally Posted by Mi-Shell

Thanks for writing that, Debra!
Exactly that is, what I see as limiting in how I personally can work with this deck...

Bat Chicken - I think that Mi-Shell, in agreeing with Debra's post above has answered your question.

[Lifeisabutterfly]

Originally Posted by Mi-Shell

Yes, I am with you and Alta here. Today I drew the 3 of cups and - it is sooo - un-MaryEl- ??
Beautiful simple image, but it could be from any deck and reminds me of the Vision Quest.

I was just mentioning to someone else here what a relief those cards were, they seem like an oasis or a pit stop along the frenetic, kinetic, mad path the other cards take us on...I had noticed this too, but rather like it, it's such a welcome refreshing breather! And note: I do love this deck!

[ZKEI]

Just wish to re-bump this thread in response to the Voting in this year's AT Top Ten decks

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/vote.shtml

[Bat Chicken]

Thanks ZKEI! Voted...

[ZKEI]

Voting is gonna end soon; http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/vote.shtml
Don't know there will be a place for this gorgeous deck or not.

[Wintergreen]

I had voted for this one as well.