Packed 8th house

[Minderwiz]

Dave rightly draws attention to the two sided nature of trines, squares and sextiles. Traditionally they were referred to as 'dexter' and 'sinister' or 'right' and 'left (dexter is latin for right, sinister for left). The terms derive from how Astrologers looked at the motion of the planets. The most important motion was primary motion - relating to the rising and setting of the planets. A planet in Aries rises after a planet in Aquarius and is said to look towards it. This 'look' is to the right, if you look at at a chart you will see that a planet on the Ascendant, is to the left of a planet in say, the eleventh House and therefore has to look to it's right to see it.

Similarly a planet in Aries has to look to its left to see a planet in Gemini by sextile. Given that it naturally faces in the way it is rising, this is also a 'backward' sextile. Natural motion thus gave more strength to the dexter versions of aspects, than the sinister versions.

Now I'm not sure whether I would use the terms 'waxing' and 'waning' here, because that depends on relative planetary speed - The Sun in Aries, Moon in Aquarius is actually a dexter aspect in the waning phase of the Moon - it does fit Dave's definition, though. Moon in Aries, Sun in Aquarius is also a dexter sextile but the Moon is now waxing, not waning. The angle is still 300 degrees in zodiacal longitude. The same observation would hold for any other pair of planets - speed determines waxing and waning phases, not zodiacal location.

Now Dave might mean that the 'opening' and 'closing' nature comes from speed and we have opening dexter aspects and closing dexter aspects. If so he would be correct but it could be either 60 or 300 degrees. Astrology traditionally has placed more weight on dexter aspects per se.

Incidentally, the planet on the right hand side of a dexter aspect is said to be in a commanding position, it's the stronger of the two, thus a Saturn Venus dexter aspect will give more strength to the planet on the right - Saturn in your case.

On the outers, Dave and I disagree on their use (and I fully recognise I'm in the minority here). So I'm not going to reignite that debate merely to say that I'm looking at a new way of using the outers (well Uranus and Neptune) in the same way that the fixed stars are used, that is as exhibiting the nature of two (or possibly more) other planets. That's something I'll be trying in the future but I'd just point out that this, and Dave's explanation render the use of 'personal' and 'generational' moot. As these terms never appeared in Astrology till the psychologists took control, I'm not particularly sorry about that LOL

[Minderwiz]

Looking at your chart, you have Sun in Exaltation, Moon in Exaltation and Saturn in Rulership so you have some strong planets. Sun and Venus are in the eleventh House, which is the House of the Good Spirit, the best non-angular placement. The Square of Saturn to Venus is separating and at nearly 5 degrees is nearing the limit of effectiveness. It's more likely that this aspect gives you a desire to be in control of your relationships, rather than just take things casually but it's not going to be restrictive to the point of debility in any relationship.

Venus is actually more afflicted by your Sun, as it is combust. The Sun rules your third House which has some links to religion (the less formal kind) as it's the House of the Goddess and this probably explains your interest in the spiritual side of life. The Sun also rules one of your Lots of Marriage (the other one is ruled by Jupiter, who signifies your marriage partner as it rules the seventh House).

I don't see this chart suggesting any major restrictions on your love life

[dadsnook2000]

Upon reading Debora Houlding's site, Skyscript, I found in the Sidereal forums some interesting comments about planets never being associated with the mythic gods and their stories until a century or so ago. Those associations were, apparently, never abscribed in classical or Hellenistic astrological practices. It just goes to show how ideas and practices come and go within our craft, many of them due to the well-meaning ignorance of the creator. It is a wonder that most of us manage to finally find our way through the mess of our own making. Dave

Edited to add:

There is an abundance of research and writings to support the role of the outer planets in terms of their expression in mundane astrology and also linkages of personal charts to those outer planets of those caught up in shaping those mundane expressions. There is also quite a bit of writing and demonstration of certain asteroids and their attributes to individuals. If Ceres, a dwarf planet like Pluto, can be seen as being relevant, than Pluto should be accorded its due also.

However, I again caution that the personal expression of the outer planets (for most of us) is a relatively rare occasion or phrase unless our personal planets and angles are closely involved. For example, I have seen many, many times the effects of T-square patterns containing Moon-Mercury-Pluto in which anxiety, fear, depression, anger and worry are overwhelmingly evident. This is a modern world, our universe of understanding is increasing every day and I, for one, am not afraid of opening up my astrology to see if it fits with this expanding world of consciousness and conceptual refinement. Dave

[Minderwiz]

I've read several Hellenistic texts, Dorotheus, Firmicus Maternus, Vettius Valens, Porphry and a little Ptolemy. Not one of them makes any reference to myths when delineating the planets, or indeed for any discussion of Astrology. We're up to Freud and Jung before these ideas seep in and mainly I suspect because they made use of myth in their writings on psychology. Their followers used that device to justify their explanations of the outers.

Now it may well be that the outers do have a role in Astrology. Indeed when I got into the tradition my long term aim was to find a way of incorporating them that was based in Astrology, not psychology or myth. You may be right about including Pluto and Ceres....but then there a raft of further contenders, such as Charon, Chiron, Eris, Makemake, Haumea, etc. For the newcomer there's the danger of 'black chart', so many bodies the chart is unreadable.

Uranus and Neptune are recognised planets, astronomically, the fourth and fifth largest objects in the solar system, so they offer the place for me to start. Drop the myth drop the misunderstood ruler ships and delineate on Astrological principles in the same way that fixed stars are used. Their extra speed compared to the stars may give them additional weight but their lack of visibility is something of a problem...but not an insuperable one.

[LovelyMissAries]

Originally Posted by Minderwiz

Looking at your chart, you have Sun in Exaltation, Moon in Exaltation and Saturn in Rulership so you have some strong planets. Sun and Venus are in the eleventh House, which is the House of the Good Spirit, the best non-angular placement. The Square of Saturn to Venus is separating and at nearly 5 degrees is nearing the limit of effectiveness. It's more likely that this aspect gives you a desire to be in control of your relationships, rather than just take things casually but it's not going to be restrictive to the point of debility in any relationship.

Venus is actually more afflicted by your Sun, as it is combust. The Sun rules your third House which has some links to religion (the less formal kind) as it's the House of the Goddess and this probably explains your interest in the spiritual side of life. The Sun also rules one of your Lots of Marriage (the other one is ruled by Jupiter, who signifies your marriage partner as it rules the seventh House).

I don't see this chart suggesting any major restrictions on your love life

Okay, and yes I do desire to be in control of my relationships. One theme I do notice about my chart is that in particular. I have the opposition (and it's with Pluto so I assume it's about control) and Virgo IC. Seeing as how my Pisces MC is supposed to teach me selflessness, spirituality, trust, etc. and I have an Aries stellium in the 11th, the "group house" as I call it I suppose it's a lesson to curb my controlling nature.

Because the 7th house is ruled by Jupiter, does that reflect back on me? Does it mean my marriage partner will be lucky, or I will be lucky with my marriage partner (or LTR, or platonic and business relationships) Does it mean my partners will be fat? I guess what I'm asking is I know the 7th house gives characteristics of our marriage partner as it's Libra's natural house and thus mirrors back onto us but I was wondering if there's a way to tell what those characteristics are in particular.

How does the Sun rule two houses? I thought it's at home in Leo, so I can understand it ruling my 3rd house but Sagittarius? Unless I'm completely mistaken on what house the Lots of Marriage meant.

[Minderwiz]

Originally Posted by LovelyMissAries

Okay, and yes I do desire to be in control of my relationships. One theme I do notice about my chart is that in particular. I have the opposition (and it's with Pluto so I assume it's about control) and Virgo IC. Seeing as how my Pisces MC is supposed to teach me selflessness, spirituality, trust, etc. and I have an Aries stellium in the 11th, the "group house" as I call it I suppose it's a lesson to curb my controlling nature.

My statement on control relates to the relationship of Saturn (structure and control) and Venus (fun enjoyment and romance). I don't see Pisces as anything to do with selflessness or spirituality. Yes it's a water sign but signs are passive not active. Pisces is ruled by Jupiter, who does have something to do with religion, the law, good fortune, and magistracy. You would do well in a career relating to the law, or in a senior management and indeed counselling.

Originally Posted by LovelyMissAries

Because the 7th house is ruled by Jupiter, does that reflect back on me? Does it mean my marriage partner will be lucky, or I will be lucky with my marriage partner (or LTR, or platonic and business relationships) Does it mean my partners will be fat? I guess what I'm asking is I know the 7th house gives characteristics of our marriage partner as it's Libra's natural house and thus mirrors back onto us but I was wondering if there's a way to tell what those characteristics are in particular.

If I was reading for your marriage, I'd start with the Sun (the prime significator of men), Mars and Lord 7, in this case Jupiter. I'd also consider any planets in the seventh. That is the ruler of the seventh is not the first or only thing to look at. If I was simply using a significator of your partner, I'd use Lord 7. The difference is in the focus. Lord 7 is a general significator but for a detailed examination More planets are considered.

Originally Posted by LovelyMissAries

How does the Sun rule two houses? I thought it's at home in Leo, so I can understand it ruling my 3rd house but Sagittarius? Unless I'm completely mistaken on what house the Lots of Marriage meant.

The Sun rules Leo, so in your chart it rules the third House. The Sun also is in exaltation in Aries so it is a power in your eleventh and the Sun is the daytime Triplicity ruler of the Fire signs, so it has reasonable strength in Sagittarius. However inthe post that you quoted I didn't mention Sagittarius, specifically but I did mention the Lots of Marriage. There are three which are used from time to time.

For women these are:

Asc + Saturn - Venus. (This is marriage as a formal institution)

Asc + Venus - Jupiter ( This is the public expression of marriage and the happiness of the couple)

Asc + Mars - Moon (This shows the romantic and sexual chemistry that can produce unhappiness and ruin)

These three show different faces and nature of marriage)

I'll comment further on those if you want more detail

[LovelyMissAries]

Originally Posted by Minderwiz

and indeed counselling.

I keep getting signs or hunches that is what I'm supposed to be doing. I was originally a psychology major in college and switched it to Journalism. I'm too far in to change it now, but I do hope to help people in that form.

However in the post that you quoted I didn't mention Sagittarius, specifically but I did mention the Lots of Marriage. There are three which are used from time to time.

For women these are:

Asc + Saturn - Venus. (This is marriage as a formal institution)

Asc + Venus - Jupiter ( This is the public expression of marriage and the happiness of the couple)

Asc + Mars - Moon (This shows the romantic and sexual chemistry that can produce unhappiness and ruin)

These three show different faces and nature of marriage)

I'll comment further on those if you want more detail

I guess what I'm getting confused on is what you mean when you say "Lots of marriage." When you say that, I'm thinking you're using a term for the 7th house, which is ruled by Sagittarius in my chart. I'm clearly mistaken though. Would you mind terribly commenting further? I'm saving your notes in my blog so I can go back to re-read and learn.

[Minderwiz]

Originally Posted by LovelyMissAries

I keep getting signs or hunches that is what I'm supposed to be doing. I was originally a psychology major in college and switched it to Journalism. I'm too far in to change it now, but I do hope to help people in that form.

Don't worry about the change in course, some of the best counsellors I've met were not psychologists.

Originally Posted by LovelyMissAries

I

I guess what I'm getting confused on is what you mean when you say "Lots of marriage." When you say that, I'm thinking you're using a term for the 7th house, which is ruled by Sagittarius in my chart. I'm clearly mistaken though. Would you mind terribly commenting further? I'm saving your notes in my blog so I can go back to re-read and learn.

OK I understand where you are getting confused, and it's my fault for assuming that what I said was clear. The Lots are what most Astrologers refer to as the Arabian Parts, calculated points in the chart that tell us more about some aspect of life. They were called Arabian Parts because it was thought that they originated with the Arab Astrologers of the early Middle Ages. Research has shown that they were actually of Hellenisitic origin - some 800 years previous and the English translation of the Greek term is 'Lot' as in Lottery ticket or even Parking Lot. There's a thread on them here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=174867

The Lots related to Marriage are points that tell us something about the nature of the marriage. I listed them in my previous post, so I'll apply them to your chart. Firstly you will notice two things, I've not got the positions exactly to the chart you posted but I'm around a minute of arc out. I've had to reconstruct your chart to add the Lots to it, and without the exact co-ordinates and time this is difficult to do exactly.

Secondly, I've left out the outer planets - in this discussion of Lots they outers aren't really central. If you want to consider how they may affect things then there's room for investigation.

The most used Lot by Hellenistic Astrologers is that listed first

ASC + Saturn - Venus

This is related to the marriage in it's formal and institutional sense - how it is seen in Law and a social context. In your chart this Lot falls at just shy of 19 degrees Pisces, and is ruled by Jupiter (Neptune might or might not have affinity to Pisces but rulership is not based on affinity).

Jupiter in your chart also rules the seventh through Sagittarius, so one of the significators of marriage, rules your lot of marriage. The Lot is placed in your tenth House - the house of Action, Career, Public and Social position. So this lot suggests that your marriage may be related to your career (a possible work colleague?), will be in some way more publically obvious than might usually be expected - you/he might become public figures, not necessarily at national or State level but at a local level. And as it squares your Ascendant and Mars in the First House, it suggests some tension between 'You' and your marriage - possibly because of the career link. Jupiter lies in your first, so if there is tension, I don't necessarily see it coming from your partner - though Gemini is where Jupiter is in Detriment so, he's got some issues.

The second Lot is ASC + Venus - Jupiter, which is more concerned with the happiness of the marriage. This Lot was used by the second century Astrologer, Vettius Valens, For you this Lot lies at seven and a half degree Taurus and is ruled by Venus, and is conjunct the Moon (exalted in Taurus). Both these suggest that the marriage will be happy. Venus is placed in Aries, conjunct the Sun. The eleventh rules your hopes and aspirations and is a good placement. The only downside is Venus is combust - a little too near the Sun but at least she is direct. There may be some ups and downs but that Moon conjunction suggests ultimately a happy marriage. The Lot is trined by Saturn from Capricorn. Saturn has dignity there and a trine is a favopurable aspect. Saturn suggests some structure to the marriage - firm foundantions.

The final Lot is concerned with issues where the Marriage might undergo stress.

Ascendant + Mars - Moon

This is shown as the Alternative Lot (suggested again by Valens) and lies in the very first degree of Leo, hence it's ruled by the Sun. The Lot uses Moon as the natural symbol of Women and Mars has it's Fall in the Moon's sign of Cancer.

In your chart the Sun is exalted in Aries and also the Triplicity Lord of the Fire signs, It's essentially extremely strong and well placed in the eleventh, Mars is not essentially strong but is placed in your first. The Lot lies in the Terms of Jupiter and Jupiter sextiles it from the first House. If things go wrong it's again likely to be something to do with your decisions, though no stressful aspect exists and so I don't really see significant problems.

Overall, it looks like a fairly happy marriage, probably a bit more public than you would like - maybe because you work with your marriage partner, and whilst there will be some conflicts nothing major seems to be lurking.

[Dowhanawi]

Hi, this is my first post beyond an introduction . My view on thus is a little different, but we all have our methods
I mostly do synastry and relationships. I agree with the poster looking at her 8th house. And this will be very summarized view point.
5th= dating -you likely excel at this. Your a split the check type, like a thoughtful date with well conceived opinions

7th= what you bring in partnership -your a fun intellectual partner who wants and gives independence.

8th= this is where you join, who your ideal partner is -he should be sun or AC cap. Even better if his 8th is gem or Aries. With your gem and Aries houses (11 & 1) being sextile and the plantets in each, I'd say either is good. For you it's a match with a good hard working suit type (with aspects in his chart that bring out a fun side for your sag/7th). A man with a more traditional view on relationships, masculine but modern equal view (your libra/4).

Outer planets are generational in signs but personal in houses in my opinion. With two gen planets here I'd say a partner from the same generation.
Uranus here confirms what I said about your cap in 8, also responsible, fresh ideas. Neptune here suggests despite this someone who believes in magic (to go with your spiritual side) and brings magic to the relationship (again for sag/7).

Saturn (a social planet) is a supportive partner who shares in ideas (goes well with your lib/5).

So that's my take, and applies to long term partnerships not dating relationships