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I found another pseudonym for Blocquel - AARON (l'helléniste). __________________ "Tarot helps you meet whatever comes in the best possible way." - mkg |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #241 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 03 Nov 2007
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Temple of Fire in Memphis
I wrote, in post 236, about the diagram of the Memphis temple in Julia Orsini c. 1838[quote] The signs of the zodiac seem to have been added by an 18th century artist. I meant 19th century artist. I just noticed that. More interestingly, I found the same diagram in a 1785 book by Etteilla himself, minus the signs of the zodiac but with some very strange, to me, signs instead. Here is the diagram: ![]() So what are those signs around the border? Are they supposed to be letters in some "divine alphabet"? Or set of alchemical symbols? A wide variety of both were present at the time, but I can't match them up with any I have looked up. Any ideas? Here is the other title page for this same book, giving the date. There's no author listed, but since Etteilla is referred to as the author on the page to the left, I'd guess it's by him.
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #242 |
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Citizen
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Etteilla and the 72
Back on post 208 (bottom of p. 21 here), Rachelcat wrote Quote:
Quote:
![]() Those look to me like the names of Hebrew angels. And if anyone wants to wade through the French, here's his discussion of these angels, p. 63 and 66--67. I leave them as URLs to save space, but all you have to do is click on them. If anybody has trouble, let me know. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NgoXaz_EfZ...nd62darker.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QIgx5qkfbp...oss66and67.jpg There is also an interesting configuration of 36 objects (which I take to be half of 72) on the frontispiece of the book. The other side gives the publication information. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xy9j8xNpz2...sTitlePage.jpg Sadly, I do not have access to a copy of D'Odoucet part 3. I will work on uploading the other reference Kwaw found to "Hautes Sciences", p. 83, when I have a moment. Was there anything else in Etteilla or D'Odoucet? |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #243 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 01 Oct 2007
Location: The Collective Unconscious
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Quote:
This same exact diagram appears in the LWB for The Egyptian Tarot by Comte Saint-Germain, and is accompanied by this text: Quote:
__________________ Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you. - Carl Jung Last edited by Metafizzypop; 15-04-2012 at 09:04. |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #244 |
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Resident
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I find it interesting the he predicted television - see the top right of the diagram. Can anyone translate the French from the links mike gave us? __________________ "Tarot helps you meet whatever comes in the best possible way." - mkg |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #245 |
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Citizen
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I think I now know what the "Temple of Memphis" diagram is about, thanks to a document that Cerulean sent me. Here it is again. ![]() Notice the four small squares of four cards each plus one more at the bottom. One is cards 22-25 plus 33. Another, clockwise to its right, is cards 36-48 plus 49. Another is cards 64-67 plus 77. The fourth is cards 50-53 plus 63. These are the court cards and the aces in each suit. Now compare those to the four at the top of the following page, which is the next to last page of Faites-mieux, j'y consense, ou Les Instructions d'Isis, Divulgees par un Electeur de la Commune de Lyon, en l'annee 1789: which means, "Do better, I agree, or The Instructions of Isis, Divulged by an Elector of the Commune of Lyon, in the year 1789." I will let Cerulean say who wrote the document, since it's hers. I just want to interpret. ![]() If the above is too blurry for you, here is a larger resolution version. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-a7varxd5Jm...Hugand38LG.jpg In this case, the numbers are the same as in the "Temple of Memphis" except that a sixth card has been added to the other five, so that the array forms a pyramid. (There is also a mistake in group 4, Commerce: the first card should be 63 rather than 62. In another triangle, of the "Notables", 63 is included by not 62.) Also, the name of a social class has been associated to each of the groups. The sixth card is one of the virtue cards. So we have Justice associated with Agriculture, Temperance associated with the Priests, Strength with the Military, and Prudence with Commerce. All of this makes total sense, from the standpoint of someone in sympathy with the French Revolution. The peasants require justice in how much of their crop they give to the Priests and the Military, and the just rewards for their labor. The priests, who eat and drink up the money given to them to help the poor (our author declares indignantly), need Temperance. The Military, of course, needs the Courage to do what is right. The Commercial people need Prudence to manage their goods and investments properly. As for the Aces, the author explains that the nobles administer "a tenth" of the proceeds of that class (the Ace is one tenth of the numbers for that suit). In the case of agriculture, a tenth is given by them to the priests and the military for protection, education, and the poor. I think that a tenth of the proceeds of commerce is also given to the same two classes. It might be just the proceeds of foreign trade that is counted. There are thus two producing classes and two serving classes. So that explains the four semi-triangles (5 numbers each) on the "Temple of Memphis." They are the nobles of the four classes, in charge of responsible administration of the people under them and of the proper use of the tax money gathered. In the "Temple of Memphis" diagram, the large upside down semi-triangle is of course the trumps, 22 of them. Then the four rows on the outside are the common people in each class. So what we have is the social structure of Egyptian society, which is an ideal to which the socially concerned people of all nations should aspire. In fact, to avoid confusion, the author calls those who are represented by the court cards "Notables" rather than "Nobles": the implication is that those who call themselves Nobles in France are often not such. I am not quite sure where the King and Queen of the whole country, or the Pharaoh and his sister-wife in Egypt, are in this diagram. The author is careful to say that he is not calling for an abolition of the monarchy. They may be in the group of trumps, number 1 or 2 and some other, 3 or 8 perhaps [Added July 1: Actually, he says that the "sovereignty" is associated with all the trumps, but particularly card 15, the Magician, identified by the keyword "Malade" in Etteilla's deck. Whether the sovereign is good or bad depends on where the "bad" trumps are in relation to card 15, so that either they dominate him or he dominates them. Since this is rather obscure, I will give quotes and diagrams in a later post.] I don't think the trumps in general correspond to a fifth social class. They are principles, some for the good and some not. When I get a chance I will translate the text supporting this interpretation (with modifications in case I find that I am wrong in some details [such as the one just added]). I would note only that the large triangle of 78 cards at the bottom of the page is the same as one made by Alain Bougearel at http://www.associazioneletarot.it/page.aspx?id=83 . He shows what he says is a similar one from an edition of Ptolemy, 1515, 12 letters on a side. He says the structure is Neopythagorean. To be sure, this system of number theory in which theorems are demonstrated for triangular numbers, square numbers, etc., was developed by the Neopythagorean mathematician Nichomachus of Gerasa in the first century b.c. It was the first of three books, one more advanced and another a book of Neopythagorean philosophy, or perhaps theology, that he also wrote. These last two books are lost, although another book that is extant, the Theologumena Arithmeticae, quotes him extensively (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicomachus). Nichomachus's "arithmetic" text (really, mathematical number theory, not Etteilla's "algebra" but not far removed), in the form given it by Boethius, was used in schools for almost 2000 years. Last edited by MikeH; 02-07-2012 at 09:20. |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #246 |
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Repose in a Eve of Gold...
Join Date: 26 Apr 2002
Location: Calif., USA
Posts: 9,338
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Thank you for the commentary
I had only got as far as the equilateral triangles and pyramid layouts of Hugandf-Jejagal of Lyons, with endorsement by Etteilla. The number assignment and ranks of the classes of humanity in Etteilla's Tarot makes more sense now. Thank you for responding to my notes in regards to the triangle layouts and numerical card assignments. __________________ Still, cerulean surges... where, as sunset lingers Eve with golden fingers... Hector A. Stuart South Sea Dreamer, 1886 Last edited by Cerulean; 01-06-2012 at 08:18. |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #247 |
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Resident
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Thank you so much, Mike. Great stuff, adding much clarity. It makes sense that many of Etteilla's theories should be see through a revolutionary lens. __________________ "Tarot helps you meet whatever comes in the best possible way." - mkg |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #248 |
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Repose in a Eve of Gold...
Join Date: 26 Apr 2002
Location: Calif., USA
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ISIS and Shepherd...and reinterpreted in the space of a few hours
I went from thinking the first document describes an actual German composer to seeing this as a conversational teaching tale and allegory of ISIS and a shepherd (Berger) named Ludovic (Ludovig)... Standard myth cycle: OSIRIS has a shepherd's crock and was known as the Good Shepherd. ISIS put him together again, reviving him. Allegory of Egypt, also Hermetic.. Discarded notion: (Ludovig Berger A German composer whose music was popular and he fled to England during the Napoleonic wars.) I keep piecing together keyword and notes and the remarks referring to that name in the first part of the correspondence--for it seems this published document is three letters addressing the Etteilla Tarots, Egyptian allegory for the deck...and Etteilla' and Hugand are directing the information and having consensus of belief for Etteilla's Society for teaching his Book of Thoth. A note for follow up. __________________ Still, cerulean surges... where, as sunset lingers Eve with golden fingers... Hector A. Stuart South Sea Dreamer, 1886 Last edited by Cerulean; 01-06-2012 at 16:27. Reason: notes |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #249 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 03 Nov 2007
Location: Oregon USA
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Etteilla and the 72
Teheuti asked, some time ago (post 245), Quote:
First, p. 63, for which the French is at http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NgoXaz_EfZ...nd62darker.jpg: Quote:
http://books.google.com/books?id=uEg...page&q&f=false Actually, there is not much relationship between what Etteilla is presenting and the contents of this book, as far as I can tell from the perusing its last two chapters. The only point of contact is that the author does, in his last chapter, talk about there being innumerable Geniuses, or Spirits, surrounding the Throne of God (p. 503) beyond the heavens, spirits which only a few people are privileged to experience; these spirits are immaterial, as opposed to having bodies made of one of the four elements. However, there are also spirits somehow related to the elements, from the Earth, the Sea, and the Ether, lesser lights lit by the Creator. Geniuses in the entrails of the earth, Palingene says, are hideously malformed but, since they are dense, easily seen, and give rise to the idea of hell. So Palingene does not believe in hell; it is quite possible that Etteilla didn’t either. One reason Etteilla brings in Palingenio is that his body was dug up and burned as that of a Magician, on order of the Inquisition. This account is from the 1731-33 translator’s introduction. Not only was he considered a heretic, but he pretended to be a Magician, according to a report in the “Journal des Savans” quoted by the translator (p. xxvii). So for Etteilla he is an example of the Inquisition’s real threat to genuine Savants. However he assures the reader that “It happened in Italy.” France presumably is governed more by reason and less by superstition. (Well, Reason could be just as terrible as superstition, as Etteilla might have learned if he’d lived a couple of years longer.) Etteilla’s list of 72 geniuses (pp. 64-65, http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-I2d0_vtgKd...nd65darker.jpg) is similar to that given in Agrippa’s Three Books of Occult Philosophy. The names are the same but the order is different. Etteilla’s 25th corresponds to Agrippa’s 2nd, and so on. It is possible that Agrippa’s list, like Etteilla’s, had correspondences to the four elements, because Agrippa groups them in four columns. Agrippa also has an account of elementals, but I don’t think Agrippa was Etteilla’s immediate source, because it is different from what Etteilla presents. Etteilla’s is similar to that which Wikipedia attributes to Paracelsus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elemental), which even today is the standard view. I continue with my translation, p. 66. (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QIgx5qkfbp...oss66and67.jpg) Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
To return to p. 66: The “second remark” seems important. If you want to rid yourself of a character defect, attract a Genius that will work with you against it. Later (p. 64) he mentions Talismans in this connection, as a means of attracting a Genius. I go on to Etteilla’s p. 67, to which I have already given a link to my scan (starting with the paragraph beginning on the bottom of p. 66) Quote:
In what follows, Etteilla seems to be assuming that every reader will have the 1770 book by de Mornas at hand. Fortunately, it is online, and the figure opposite p. 196 is at http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?v...eq=239;num=196 The picture is of a globe on which the author has drawn 18 longitude lines with the equator and four other latitude lines cutting them, 2 north of the equator and 2 south. Etteilla does not explain how this globe and its lines correspond to his doctrine of Geniuses. Perhaps the good Geniuses are meant to be like the longitude lines north of the equator, and the bad ones those to the south. In modern discussions of the 72 angels, authors make use of a circle on which there is an angel every 5 degrees (72x5 = 360 degrees, the total for the whole circle; see it e.g. at http://guideangel.com/, the circle with the 12 signs of the zodiac pictured around it, and below it two of these signs divided into 6 parts each, i.e. 5 degrees apart). That comes to very much the same thing as de Mornas’s globe, if we imagine the circle as the equator and the longitude lines as drawn every 5 degrees instead of de Mornas’s 10. If the good angels range around the Throne of Wisdom, what do the bad angels range around? And are they, too, emanations of the Most High? These questions, pertaining to the origin of cosmic evil (apart from evil chosen as the result of free will). Etteilla does not examine--perhaps wisely, considering the Inquisition. Later in the book Etteilla lists what sphere of influence each genius, good orbad, has. Here are the first seven examples (pp. 75-76): Quote:
I don’t know where he gets these descriptions, but they are of a similar sort to what I find on the Internet even today. It would be easy enough to assign these 72 to 72 corresponding tarot cards, as for example Levi did, giving one Angel to each the 36 suit cards from Ace to Nines (see http://guideangel.com/ again). But as far as I can tell, Etteilla did not do that. Also, Levi’s descriptions of his Angels do not correspond to Etteilla’s. While Etteilla does not make any correlations between Geniuses and particular cards, he does say (pp. 111-112) that it is possible to calculate what number (from 1 to 72) a person’s Genius is, and from that look up its name in Etteilla’s chart. To get the number, all you need to know are the initials of the person’s first and last name and their favorite number, chosen by them. Then there is a way of converting the initials to numbers (which he dos not explain), adding to their sum the remainder from dividing the person’s favorite number by 12, then adding to that sum two other numbers related to the initials, from a table Etteilla provides (although I don’t see how it works), and dividing that sum by 72. The remainder is the number of the person’s Genius. It would seem to me easier just to draw a card from the deck; but that might not require the services of an expert “Cartonomancier” like Etteilla. I hope this exposition has been helpful to someone. Here is my transcription of Etteilla’s French original for what I have translated, all from Philosophie des Hautes Sciences, Amsterdam 1785. Quote:
Last edited by MikeH; 10-07-2012 at 07:10. |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #250 |
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