Justice and the Force

[casia]

Why is it that in some decks the Justice card comes up as number 8 and the Force is number 11 and in other decks it's the other way around???

Is one way better than the other??? does it affect your readings when you relate these cards to others taking the numbers into acount????

I use the medevil scapini, and Justices comes before Foce......

[rwcarter]

The Golden Dawn switched the Marseilles numbering of Justice at 8 and Strength at 11 to align with astrological associations if I remember correctly. Neither system is better than the other, just different. Some folks will actually change the number on the face of their deck if whatever number doesn't jibe with what they're used to. I learned Justice as 11, so I'm more comfortable with that. But I have decks that have completely changed around many or all of the Major Arcana numberings, so I'm not as bothered by it any more.

[Thirteen]

What Rodney said The GD thought Justice should be Libra (cause Libra's emblem is the scales) and the Force (Strength) should be Leo (cause there's a lion). But you can't have Libra come before Leo, so they simply switched the numbers. I think they also liked "11" as Libra as the number offers that 1 & 1 look, like two side of a balanced scale.

[rachelcat]

11 is also the "middle card" of 21, and Libra is kind of the middle of the 12 signs (number 7 of 12).

And they're both (Justice and Strength/Force) cardinal virtues, so maybe they thought it's not that drastic of a switch.

[LRichard]

Rodney is correct. If the 22 Major Trumps are placed in order on the 22 connecting paths of the Tree of Life, starting with 0 (The Fool) on the first such path, then card VIII ends up on the Leo path and XI on the Libra path. Thus it is more appropriate to have VIII as Strength and XI as Justice, rather than the other way around (as in, for example, the TdM). The other cards fall into place remarkably well (for example, the Devil is Capricorn, and Death is Scorpio). The actual numbering of the Trumps doesn't really matter, but renumbering Strength and Justice was a mnemonic convenience for GDers.

[Trogon]

Arthur Edward Waite stated in his "The Pictorial Key to the Tarot" (Part II, chapt. on "Strength or Fortitude") pub. 1911;

For reasons which satisfy myself, this card has been interchanged with that of Justice, which is usually numbered eight. As the variation carries nothing with it which will signify to the reader, there is no cause for explanation.

I'm not certain about other published or unpublished works by Mr. Waite, but this is, I believe, the only "explanation" he gave on why Strength and Justice were changed in his Tarot.

[Thirteen]

Originally Posted by Trogon

Arthur Edward Waite stated in his "The Pictorial Key to the Tarot" (Part II, chapt. on "Strength or Fortitude") pub. 1911;

I'm not certain about other published or unpublished works by Mr. Waite, but this is, I believe, the only "explanation" he gave on why Strength and Justice were changed in his Tarot.

LOL! Yeah, that's a famous (relative to tarot readers) quote there. Waite certainly had no idea he was creating a template for future decks that'd be sold to the public at large; he meant them as cards for generations of readers in the know, like him and those belonging to the GD. Esoteric gentlemen scholars. Which is why he put certain, unexplained symbols on the cards (including types of flowers, color choices, the way people are posed/positioned, etc.) to stand for certain magical info that only club members would understand--and were allowed to discuss. Like say, that the Hanged man's hands were tied behind his back so that his arms and head formed an inverted triangle (the alchemical sign for water), or that this, surmounted by the cross of his legs, created an inverted alchemical sign for sulfur. These were things those who were part of the GD would see and know, and those who weren't didn't need to know--or weren't allowed to know.

Waite was good about keeping secrets. So, this quote is no big surprise. It pretty much says, "Those who are part of the club will understand my reasons why, those who aren't don't need to know. Just trust me that this is right." Now, Crowley, on the other hand, loved telling people all the cool esoteric stuff; he'd not only give away the secret handshake but explain all the whys and wherefores behind it. Which is one of the many reasons he tended to piss off his GD buddies

[casia]

Thankyou for enlightening me...

What about people like me that like to include the symbology for the numbers in the readings, does it affect it in anyway???? or should I just play it by ear....

[Thirteen]

Originally Posted by casia

What about people like me that like to include the symbology for the numbers in the readings, does it affect it in anyway???? or should I just play it by ear....

Play it by ear, I'd say. It's like the problem with assigning zodiac signs to the courts. Every tarot creator has their own idea of which goes with whom (excepting that most keep to water signs for cups, earth signs for pents, etc), and every reader has their own idea, too. So depending on the deck you're using, it'll change. You decide if you want to keep to what you think is right (like, 8 is always Justice no matter what the deck says) or if you're going to be flexible about it.

[casia]

Thanks... it is very interesting for me to learn about the history of the cards.....