Beginner/Starter decks for entry into the Marseille Tradition(s)

[shaveling]

If someone wants a deck for comparison with the RWS, then a Marseille would probably be better choice than one of the admittedly beautiful Soprafino type decks.

The lemniscate floating in air over the RWS Magician and Strength can be found suggested in the turban of the Classic Tarot depiction of Strength, but you have to look pretty hard for it. It's more obvious in the hats of Le Bateleur and Strength of the TdM. The same goes for the crown-like top of the Tower, and the lemniscate shaped band connecting the two coins in the two of coins / pentacles.

And in some instances the RWS is much closer to the TdM than the Classic is. The composition of the Devil card, and that character's torch; the three main resurrected figures in Judgement; the Magician / Le Bateleur both carrying a wand; the composition of the Moon card; and the seven little stars and one big star on Trump XVII. And there's the Wheel of Fortune. Like the TdM, the RWS has three figures: one rising, one falling, and the one balanced at the top carrying a sword. The Classic does different things with all these cards.

Another thing missing from the Classic are the tongues of fire or Yod's that both the RWS and the TdM have around the Ace of Swords. An interesting comparison would be to see where they show up and don't in those decks. Those particular thingamabobs aren't Yod-shaped in the Noblet. In his deck they definitely look like tongues of fire, or drops of liquid. That's one reason I'd look to a Conver or Dodal, instead of the Noblet, for comparison with the RWS. There are other things as well: the lack of a bird in the Star, and Le Bataleur's wand (or what remains of it) looking like a penis and not a wand at all. I'm not disparaging the Noblet, or any of the Soprafino decks. But if someone is particularly interested in puzzling out which TdM elements Waite and Smith decided to include in or exclude from their deck, the Soprafinos and Noblet would be less informative than Conver or Dodal. My beloved Burdel wouldn't be much help, either. He didn't put the thingamabobs in his Aces of Batons or Swords. I love the deck, but not for this particular comparison project.

[LRichard]

Originally Posted by Carla

I had the Noblet and I just don't get on with the way TdM decks look. So I prefer the Soprafino decks......

TdM is an acquired taste. It has a sort of Taoistic naturalness, simplicity, and directness, "perfectly imperfect" in its own unique fashion. The Soprafino type decks are artistically at the opposite extreme of refinement, although they are structurally equivalent to the TdM. An intuitive reader will likely get entirely different impressions from, say, The Sun in the Soprafino and the corresponding card in the TdM. The same goes for most of the other Trumps.

ETA. The ISIS is a popular version of the TdM which is quite easy on the eyes. Some better scans are in this thread. It is somewhat like the Fournier but with brighter colors and more expressive faces.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

Originally Posted by shaveling

Another thing missing from the Classic are

1. The vesica piscis (vjay-jay) on the ground between the legs of the Magician/La Bataleur (or however it's spelled)

2. The penis across the breast of the Papesse

The Soprafino decks lack both of the above symbols.

[shaveling]

Originally Posted by Carla

Would it be too off topic to ask about Tarot of the Masters here? Would that be good for a beginner? Is it considered in the TdM tradition?

The main reason people give for suggesting the RWS family of cards as a good starting point is that that's the tradition the books in English will mostly be working with. Another reason, not so often mentioned, is that RWS ideas are assumed in a lot of the discussions here. When there's a thread about "Is there a positive meaning of the Eight of Swords?" it really refers to the meanings associated with the artwork of the RWS and the ideas that art was inspired by, not the eight interlaced swords of the TdM. So to understand what's going on in those threads, you need to know the pictures/meanings that are being assumed.

Once you say, "I don't care so much about those considerations," then any deck, including The Tarot of the Master, can be a perfectly good beginner's deck, IMHO. It's not a Marseille deck, or particularly close to one. But if someone wants to do the "read the pictures" approach, then the pips and courts in the Tarot of the Master give the reader a lot more to work with than a Marseille, Soprafino, or Swiss 1JJ.

[Eeviee]

Originally Posted by shaveling

Asking Marseille enthusiasts this question is like asking a room full of slightly drunk opera queens what should be your first opera. An answer may emerge, but the conversation just as likely to turn quite strange.

My contribution would be to tell you to do more research, finding out what's actually available, looking at pictures and comparing prices. But maybe you're tired of that part at this point, so I'll say to go with either the Thunder Bay or the Bounty Books. We Marseille types sometimes identify our decks by publisher, and so we do with these. They're two different publications of the same Conver deck. The Conver a very standard Marseille, possibly the most commonly illustrated pattern in TdM books. Thunder Bay packages its deck in The Tarot Set, with a book by Jane Lyle. Many TdM people decry the book because it's expressive of the standard RWS interpretations. There's also a purple cloth. Sometimes people decry that, too. I can't recall why. The version published by Bounty Books is larger, stiffer, and comes very very tightly packed in a box with a LWB. It's probably available at The Book Depository, which I think offers free shipping to the US.

I believe they're both inexpensive, they should serve for your comparison studies, and they're large enough for you to see the details. But the details are sometimes indeterminate. But with a nice big card you can see that for yourself, which should count for something.

I'm interested in the Bounty Bay... would that be this set?:
Http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/160710...8433483&sr=8-7

[shaveling]

Originally Posted by Eeviee

I'm interested in the Bounty Bay... would that be this set?:

Judging by this link ( which is a bit clearer than what I get from clicking on yours), I'm saying yes, that's the Thunder Bay, with Jane Lyle's book.