The Tarot symbols origin

[Debra]

TarotCard has contributed 9 posts to AT and doesn't say if he or she is the author of the book. [eta: TarotCard doesn't say if he or she admires the book--just reports that it's available]

Maybe the book costs too much. It's hard to publish one's own stuff. Has anyone seen it? There's plenty of not-great stuff in the world of tarot. I'd like to know more about it.

Teheuti is right, there's lots of material on the web that we can look at for free, no need to buy a book. It's nice to know if something can be viewed at no cost (like the Waite-Trinick tarot images, for example, on the British Museum web site!) I'm not sure why this would be a valid critique of the book, however. The author may be doing something original (without seeing it, you can't judge). And some people under any circumstances prefer a book.

[Ross G Caldwell]

TarotCard knew about Morgan DuVall's book and what it contained seven months before it was published. It looks like nothing at all has changed in the description. TarotCard spoke authoritatively about the forthcoming book, and even spoke in the first person in this post:

http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p...5&postcount=24

Originally Posted by TarotCard

Dear Celtic Seeker,

I am glad to hear that you are willing to learn and you should pursue your instincts.
As you can see, there are two schools of thought on the Tarot. One that it is very ancient (i.e., not invented here syndrome) and the other that can be summed up as the "invented here" (meaning western Renaissance). Please continue to research this issue for yourself. However, since the majority of books today espouse the "invented here" philosophy, and you are perhaps interested in investigating the other philosophy, a new book called Archaeology of the Tarot will give you plenty of insights for your quest.

A Wicked Pack of cards, in my opinion, is only propaganda for the "invented here" philosophy. On page 27 there is a very reasonable quoted passage essentially saying no one knows where the Tarot comes from and some of the theories abounding. One sentence states "The majority view among the Western Occultist is that the Tarot originated in ancient Egypt." This passage is mercilessly attacked as being "the most successful propaganda campaign ever launched" and "every single sentence in the foregoing quotation is untrue". The authors' bias is easily exposed in that not every single sentence in the quotation is untrue. At least we should all agree the first sentence is true:"For all its theoretical and practical importance, the history of the Tarot is still a matter of controversy and debate". Ironically, the "most successful propaganda campaign ever launched" is actually the "invented here" one.

So Thanks for asking and keep on researching....

(my emphases added)

To which I responded -

Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell

This book is not yet published, nor is there any indication it is even written.

http://digg.com/newsbar/topnews/arch...y_of_the_tarot

Since the poster "TarotCard" seems to know what it is about, we may guess that TarotCard is Morgan DuVall, the author of the forthcoming book. However, as the book is not yet even available, posting an announcement of it in a "where to start, what to read" thread, is at best disingenuous, at worst pure spam.

The Sable Feather Press Forum has 1 member (the other, "kim22" does not exist any longer), and one post, on March 9, by a person named "Sable" - who is also the administrator of the Forum - which simply quotes the blurb on the book promotion page.

http://www.sablefeatherpress.com/myBB/index.php

The clearest conclusion is that TarotCard, Morgan DuVall, and Sable, are all the same person. If TarotCard and Sable are not Morgan DuVall, then he or they are closely related to the author, and shill for him. Knowing the contents of a book 7 months before it is released, and speaking on behalf of the not-yet-published author with unabashed personal opinion, seem like clinchers to me.

Finally, the writing style of TarotCard's posts and the Morgan DuVall blurb are the same. For instance, they both use the word "expose" in the same atypical and sensationalistic way, which would be unlikely for two different authors with different manners of expression.

TarotCard is Morgan DuVall.

[Debra]

The way I see it, no one is hawking this book, trying to drum up sales--merely mentioning that it's available with a few words about the contents. I wouldn't call that shilling

Isn't it up to the author if he wants to introduce himself and participate in discussions on the origin of tarot symbols?

Some of us might find it interesting.

[Ross G Caldwell]

TarotCard, Morgan DuVall, or anyone else, is welcome to review the book or discuss its contents here. Given its apparent importance, it is odd that no review has appeared here or at Amazon, his chosen "go to" link.

Since TarotCard repeats the same thing over and over, both before and after the book was published, I am confident to put forward a guess that the book contains little but the same thing.

This would be - here are some ancient Egyptian images that seem similar to Tarot de Marseille images - especially if you use your imagination and accept my interpretation. Here are some "archaic Greece" (sic) images, which resemble Tarot de Marseille images, in my opinion. See - it proves that Tarot existed in ancient Egypt and Greece!

If TarotCard would like to review the book, booksellers provide space for it, and it can be done here on Aeclectic Tarot if he likes as well. But there is as yet no review at Amazon, his chosen link, and no "likes" either. There is no review, no quote but the same one from 7 months ago, and no other indication of argumentation. TarotCard also does not engage in discussion on this Forum, he only appears, posts the title of the book and says it explains something, and goes. No debate, discussion, review, or anything.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, but all we have seen so far is an extraordinary price tag.

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally Posted by Debra

Isn't it up to the author if he wants to introduce himself and participate in discussions on the origin of tarot symbols?

It is, and he is perfectly welcome to do so.

We've been waiting seven months to hear more about it. But all we get are notices that:

1) it is coming.
2) it is now available.

Some of us might find it interesting.

By all means, take the plunge, buy it, and review it for us.

However, if one has $70 to spend on a book or books, I recommend the following go into your collection first:

Decker, Ronald; Thierry Depaulis, Michael Dummet, A Wicked Pack of Cards: The Origins of the Occult Tarot (Duckworth, 1996; reprints available)
Decker and Dummett, A History of the Occult Tarot, 1870-1970 (Duckworth, 2002)

These will prove to be reliable references for generations to come, that you will refer to again and again.

[Debra]

Ross, I hope he won't be feeling unwelcome because you made fun of him for the typo on his web page. Everyone makes mistakes--in one way or another, including typing, writing, even reading comprehension.

I agree with your recommendation and I have those two good books.

Someone noted that the essence of tarot history is in Dummett's 15-page introduction to The Visconti-Sforza Tarot Cards.

Used paperbacks are available for less than ten dollars, leaving one more cash for other worthy projects. Like buying tarot decks.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...condition=used

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally Posted by Debra

Ross, I hope he won't be feeling unwelcome because you made fun of him for the typo on his web page.

I highly doubt it. Anyone who claims to "expose the origin of the Tarot symbolism" and, "for the first time" to "seriously" do something, obviously has enough self-esteem to brush off the superficial and uninformed criticisms of a pipsqueak like me.

Everyone makes mistakes--in one way or another, including typing, writing or perhaps even reading comprehension.

A proofreader would have helped. I make mistakes that another, or several others, will correct. That mistake was not encouraging, since it is in bold green letters and is the entrance to the point of sale.

It is still not corrected, more than 24 hours after I pointed it out.

I have just now checked it again (15:11 (10 past three in the afternoon), August 17, 2012) and it is still not fixed. This does not give confidence that the author cares very much about getting things right. Like, perhaps, the facts.

I agree with your recommendation and I have these two good books.

Someone noted that the essence of tarot history is in Dummett's 15-page introduction to The Visconti-Sforza Tarot Cards.

Used paperbacks are available for less than ten dollars, leaving one more cash for other worthy projects. Like buying tarot decks.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...condition=used

Yes, all of Michael Dummett's writings on the subject of Tarot are worth having. I was trying to stay roughly within $70 US.

If you want to go up to, say, $400, then the real essence of Tarot history is Dummett's The Game of Tarot, and you can also join the International Playing Card Society, which will give you online access to the entire run of the Society's journal, The Playing Card, which includes four decades of Dummett's articles on the Tarot and other card games.

[Teheuti]

Debra - I agree that a discussion of the ideas in the book with the author would be very interesting.

However, I don't see any desire of the author to do so as the person has not identified him or herself here. If TarotCard is the author, he or she has prefaced such a discussion with demands that we answer his/her questions about the pre-Christian use of the word Epiphany (as a title to an event? - its unclear) and the Popess. The fact that TarotCard says we need to give the answer as a text of 13,000 words and "without looking anything up" is rather strange and unfriendly.
(added: http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=81
http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=78 )

[Yygdrasilian]

There is a trick with “the facts” of the Fool, as his humor tended to turn them upside-down, blow them out of proportion, and revel in their grotesque mockery. He was honored on holy feast days even as he travestied the church and its' hierarchy. A nobody who reigned supreme when celebrating Saints who took the place of ancient Gods.

For how long did this Fool invert the law during sacred holidays of the ritual calendar?

Due to the nature of his role, he has ever remained 'outside' the official sanction of church and state. His antics were otherwise ignored or absent during the austerities of ordinary time. Yet, being a fellow of infinite jest, his use as an icon speaks to that most ancient of punchlines: that nothing is ever what it seems.

Our sense of humor today too often serves as a thin veil of derision, masking more sardonic forms of moralizing. So it may difficult to identify with laughter as evoked in the folk traditions of the fool. After his revelries ceased to be tolerated with the onset of an Age of Reason, he became a stranger to us. His jokes, out of context, not quite as funny.

ALas...

[Ross G Caldwell]

UPDATE -

The misspelled "Oder" remains two days after being pointed out. It could be that Sable Feather Press is too busy, right?

Nope - another paragraph has since been added to the blurb - so the site has been updated.

It is clear that this author does not want discussion, feedback, or criticism, but only customers. As Mary points out, TarotCard issued a bizarre challenge on the "Is the Tarot Pre-Christian?" thread
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=148119
- demanding that someone produce "13,000" words on the subject of Epiphany.

I would hazard a guess that this is the number of words in his book. If so, then, at an anemic 500 words per page (which means a large font), there are only 26 pages of text.