why bother with qabalistic numbers? - Page 2

Abrac · 17-08-2012

The outer symbolism is the top, and obvious layer. Occultists are always looking for confirmation that their ideas and insights are "correct." Numerology is one way of doing this. If the numerology "corresponds," that reinforces that he or she is on the "right track." Otherwise, they have to adjust their thinking to account for the new revelations. Personally I believe looking for confirmation through numerology and the like is a trap that leads to nowhere.

But since your stated purpose of intellectual stimulation seems to actually be "tearing down," I'm sure you'll find fault with me as well, even though I tend to agree with you.

Always Wondering · 17-08-2012

Because it works for me.
It hasn't always.
I started with astrology.
It wasn't until I began to study the Book of Law that I found Qabalah helpful and a little less confusing.

I am a Chicken Qabalist. That means I can call myself a Qabalist without any better or worse than ego stuff to get in the way. That means I laugh at myself and try not to worry or take it all so seriously. Try is the key word here as I often get caught up and frustrated myself.

And Gematria is game. One that seems fun to me, though I am still learning how to play. If you don't find it fun or useful I wouldn't worry about it.

If you don't find Qabalah at all helpful, or fun, or even detrimental to living in your own skin right now, there wouldn't be anything wrong at all with choosing to leave it alone.

If you are feeling frustrated and working too hard to make it fit you might try reading, or rereading The Chicken Qabalah by DuQuette.

http://www.amazon.com/Chicken-Qabala.../dp/1578632153

Quote:

the only thing that matters with the thoth deck is the symbolism, not the attributions later applied by mystics and academics of the occult. im sorry that your post was in vein

If you want a challenge you could rethink this.
http://hermetic.com/crowley/crowley-harris.html
The corresppondence between Crowley and Harris would be a good starting point.

Quote:

i wish to tear down what has been and recreate what is to be

Oh boy, can I relate. Think of all that symbolism churning around inside of you somewhere. Maybe it just needs a chance to settle for a moment?

AW

pseudonim · 17-08-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abrac

The outer symbolism is the top, and obvious layer. Occultists are always looking for confirmation that their ideas and insights are "correct." Numerology is one way of doing this. If the numerology "corresponds," that reinforces that he or she is on the "right track." Otherwise, they have to adjust their thinking to account for the new revelations. Personally I believe looking for confirmation through numerology and the like is a trap that leads to nowhere.

But since your stated purpose of intellectual stimulation seems to actually be "tearing down," I'm sure you'll find fault with me as well, even though I tend to agree with you.

ha! of course! i need more responses to satiate my curiosity! every post helps so thank you,

i just hope being confrontational isnt too off putting, its all for the cause of us all! to learn! to challenge! to become stronger intellectually and consciously! to be able to successfully explain yourself to the uninitiated!

long live the antagonist!

pseudonim

pseudonim · 17-08-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Always Wondering

Oh boy, can I relate. Think of all that symbolism churning around inside of you somewhere. Maybe it just needs a chance to settle for a moment?

AW

but when the dust settles, so does the inspiration. its like i need to study these things daily and for hours on end to satisfy a need in me i dont know where its coming from.

these are the things i fear,

pseudonim

coeur · 17-08-2012

Because it helps a lot when you blank on the meaning of the cards and it helps in seeing the relationships with the cards. As someone who approaches reading very cerebrally, it's really something that I can go to when my intuition blanks--and I don't have a very strong intuition so that happens a lot. I learned the Qabalistic numbers when I was young so it was an easy way for me to learn all the cards quickly using those numbers. For example, if you learn the Qabalistic meaning of 7, then you can easily remember all the 7s that occur within the tarot. It was especially useful for me and the Thoth because the Thoth pips are not visually descriptive (and I'd been using the Thoth since I'd started tarot over a decade ago--so I was able to learn all the meanings of the cards very quickly).

I also think it's notable that numbers play a huge role in our understanding of the world and many numbers have archetypal significance. Thus, even if the first tarot cards were created as playing decks, the fact remains that certain numbers have had a near-universal significance--and definitely a universal significance in the West (there are, of course, civilizations that are not 10-based systems, but they didn't create tarot decks). Just because the number 3 was later intellectualized doesn't mean that the number 3 didn't have a subconscious significance at the time of the tarot's conception. The fact that cultures across time and space have revered different trinities and considered 10 to be the end of cycles does seep into the creation of tarot even if, at the time, there was no elaborate body of text--to the maker's knowledge--creating express guidance.

Numbers often elicit responses from the reader--just like an image of water or fire would. There's not a human on this earth who has not seen a number before. And, similarly, people use numbers everyday. The fact that we have unlucky 13s and lucky 7s or use phrases like The One shows that there is some shared subconscious well of mutual understanding that can be tapped into when it comes to numbers. The fact that numerology is dismissed as purely intellectual rationalization is silly to me. If the symbol of water wouldn't be considered a purely intellectual rationalization, then why should the number 10 be an intellectual rationalization? Everyone in the West has dealt with the number 10--having 10 fingers and 10 toes and having a 10-based number system, after all.

Numbers are symbols too and they seep into our unconscious just as much as any image. I'd argue that most people see numbers on a daily basis than the sea or lightning. We see more numbers than we see pomegranates. We probably think more about numbers than we think about pomegranates or lambs or shields or even the moon. Numbers quarter our time. Numbers enumerate our lives. I see no reason to be so dismissive about numbers.

The Kabbalah system formally explores the relationship of numbers. But normal people can come to these conclusions too. To the Chinese (and, as a Chinese person, I have first hand knowledge that this is continuing and popular in China), the number 4 is connected to death. People will go out of their ways to avoid having 4 in their phone numbers and many buildings do not have a 14th level for this reason. I worked in China this past summer and I noticed that no one had a 4 in their phone number in China. In tarot, 4 is related to the Emperor as well as Death in the major arcana. Notably, just reading Michel Foucault as well as the Book of Thoth shows that we have long related kings and emperors with destruction and death. Unlucky 13 might have been recycled into unlucky 4 in China, but the numerological connection is still extremely strong.

Whether you choose to study these relationships is up to you. It's not necessary. But I personally find that it's given me food for thought. I think the important thing to realize is that there's no 'right' way to study the tarot. You have to figure it out on your own in order to really understand the tarot. Anything pre-bottled out of a book has a limited range of use. But the more ways you look at the cards, the richer your understanding can be. It's like getting different perspectives. Getting hung up on the THE TRUTH is useless. What you should be hung up about is what is most effective and useful to you.

Always Wondering · 18-08-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by pseudonim

but when the dust settles, so does the inspiration. its like i need to study these things daily and for hours on end to satisfy a need in me i dont know where its coming from.

these are the things i fear,

pseudonim

From the Book of Lies

http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib333.htm

THE BLIND WEBSTER

It is not necessary to understand; it is enough to
adore.
The god may be of clay: adore him; he becomes
GOD.
We ignore what created us; we adore what we create.
Let us create nothing but GOD!
That which causes us to create is our true father and
mother; we create in our own image, which is theirs.
Let us create therefore without fear; for we can
create nothing that is not GOD.

You might focus on ATU XV The Devil.

Quote:

The formula of this card is then the complete appreciation of all existing things. He rejoices in the rugged and the barren no less the in the smooth and the fertile. All things equally exalt him. He represents the finding of ecstasy in every phenomenon, however naturally repugnant; he transcend all limitations; he is Pan; he is All.

Quote:

In every symbol of this card there is the allusion to the highest things and most remote. Even the horns of the goat are spiral, to represent the movemnet of the all-prevading energy. Zoroaster defines God as "having a spiral force". Compare the more recent, if less profound, writings of Eintein.

Have you tapped into a natural source? The phallic Tower has to fall, only to be errected again. No human can keep a perpetual hard on.

Some who have tried have damaged themselves. Others simply get burnt out.

AW

**closrapexa** · 19-08-2012

Hmmmm.

If there is one thing you could say about Kabbalistic attributions, it is that they weren't an mere additions. In fact, what you call esoteric symbolism is actually based on the Kabbalah. It is so inherent that without it there would be no Thoth. Each card has a meaning, but those meanings are far from arbitrary, they are the root and core of what the Golden Dawn was, and Crowley himself was first and foremost a Kabbalist. The "core" meaning of each card stems from it's place on the Sephiroths and Paths, together with it's astrological meaning which strengthens or weakens the Kabbalistic attribution.

Now, although I don't use it, I have the greatest respect for the Marseilles, as it predates everything the GD did, and works well. So, no one is forcing you to learn the Kabbalah, just as the Thoth can be read intuitively with no studying at all, but it does give back in direct proportion to what you give it.

Of course, there are different systems and different schools of thought, and about as many Trees as there are decks, but the Tree serves as important a function as the images themselves; to provoke thought, to see order in chaos, to build a structure to the universe. In fact, so important is the Kabbalah to the Thoth, that all those other things you mentioned, those are the things that were added on to, like I said, give more dimension.

Ultimately you could think of each card as a story. Say you have a Prince of a Kingdom. You already know he's probably rich, and young, perhaps impatient and foolhardy. That's a slim character still; a story needs more "meat." The meat is that together with his youth, he is also very sensitive to other peoples' feeling, but also can be blunt and to the point, because of his inexperience, unlike his father. While he is young and childish, he is also heir to great secrets, of which he has learned just a little yet, but that little has made a direct link with his father whom he will one day replace. He also has a younger sister who he loves but feels slightly superior to, so he tried to teach her everything he can, but she is slower and more stupid than him, so it's uphill work.

I could go on, but we already have many characteristics that make up the Prince of Cups, sitting in Tiphareth, with knowledge of both the lower world of his sister who sits in Malkuth and his parents who sit in Chochma and Binah respectively. It's all up to you, but the more you study, the more three dimensional your characters will be. Imagination needs impetus, food for thought, fuel.

But yes, after that ramble, the key sentence is that the GD began with the Tree and then worked there way up from there, not the other way 'round.

**ravenest** · 20-08-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by pseudonim

i will argue to the grave that esoteric symbolism trumps any "core teaching" on a practical level w/r/t the thoth tarot.

Tarot being mostly represented in a form of visual symbolism (and me being mostly 'right brained') inclines me to tend to agree with you. (As 'esoteric symbolism' by definition is trying to represent something beyond, above or apart from and requires representastion, visually, abctractly, by story, myth, symbol, allegory, etc.)

But one thing we cant deny is tarots relationship to number, series, numerical progression, etc.. If you take that out, you end up with something like 'destiny cards' or any of those types of cards that one often finds in piles or bowls on display for the customer to choose in new age book shops.

I dont know if we can relate the concept of tarot cards (or indeed playing cards) without the idea of numerical progression.

So considering their history, my make up and viewpoints and the whole idea of tarot being an 'esoteric' system I look for further esoteric and visual symbolism to explain the numerical sequences that are an intrinsinc part of tarot.

Hence Qabalah. If thats too much, strange or alien one can look at the 'Naples Arrangement' to get an idea on whats going on with numbers in the Tarot (or as a way of getting behind some ideas in the qabalah.)

coeur Citizen Join Date: 19 May 2006 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 632	Because it helps a lot when you blank on the meaning of the cards and it helps in seeing the relationships with the cards. As someone who approaches reading very cerebrally, it's really something that I can go to when my intuition blanks--and I don't have a very strong intuition so that happens a lot. I learned the Qabalistic numbers when I was young so it was an easy way for me to learn all the cards quickly using those numbers. For example, if you learn the Qabalistic meaning of 7, then you can easily remember all the 7s that occur within the tarot. It was especially useful for me and the Thoth because the Thoth pips are not visually descriptive (and I'd been using the Thoth since I'd started tarot over a decade ago--so I was able to learn all the meanings of the cards very quickly). I also think it's notable that numbers play a huge role in our understanding of the world and many numbers have archetypal significance. Thus, even if the first tarot cards were created as playing decks, the fact remains that certain numbers have had a near-universal significance--and definitely a universal significance in the West (there are, of course, civilizations that are not 10-based systems, but they didn't create tarot decks). Just because the number 3 was later intellectualized doesn't mean that the number 3 didn't have a subconscious significance at the time of the tarot's conception. The fact that cultures across time and space have revered different trinities and considered 10 to be the end of cycles does seep into the creation of tarot even if, at the time, there was no elaborate body of text--to the maker's knowledge--creating express guidance. Numbers often elicit responses from the reader--just like an image of water or fire would. There's not a human on this earth who has not seen a number before. And, similarly, people use numbers everyday. The fact that we have unlucky 13s and lucky 7s or use phrases like The One shows that there is some shared subconscious well of mutual understanding that can be tapped into when it comes to numbers. The fact that numerology is dismissed as purely intellectual rationalization is silly to me. If the symbol of water wouldn't be considered a purely intellectual rationalization, then why should the number 10 be an intellectual rationalization? Everyone in the West has dealt with the number 10--having 10 fingers and 10 toes and having a 10-based number system, after all. Numbers are symbols too and they seep into our unconscious just as much as any image. I'd argue that most people see numbers on a daily basis than the sea or lightning. We see more numbers than we see pomegranates. We probably think more about numbers than we think about pomegranates or lambs or shields or even the moon. Numbers quarter our time. Numbers enumerate our lives. I see no reason to be so dismissive about numbers. The Kabbalah system formally explores the relationship of numbers. But normal people can come to these conclusions too. To the Chinese (and, as a Chinese person, I have first hand knowledge that this is continuing and popular in China), the number 4 is connected to death. People will go out of their ways to avoid having 4 in their phone numbers and many buildings do not have a 14th level for this reason. I worked in China this past summer and I noticed that no one had a 4 in their phone number in China. In tarot, 4 is related to the Emperor as well as Death in the major arcana. Notably, just reading Michel Foucault as well as the Book of Thoth shows that we have long related kings and emperors with destruction and death. Unlucky 13 might have been recycled into unlucky 4 in China, but the numerological connection is still extremely strong. Whether you choose to study these relationships is up to you. It's not necessary. But I personally find that it's given me food for thought. I think the important thing to realize is that there's no 'right' way to study the tarot. You have to figure it out on your own in order to really understand the tarot. Anything pre-bottled out of a book has a limited range of use. But the more ways you look at the cards, the richer your understanding can be. It's like getting different perspectives. Getting hung up on the THE TRUTH is useless. What you should be hung up about is what is most effective and useful to you. Last edited by coeur; 17-08-2012 at 17:19.

17-08-2012	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #15

closrapexa Extemporaneous Join Date: 31 Jan 2004 Location: Israel Posts: 3,523	Hmmmm. If there is one thing you could say about Kabbalistic attributions, it is that they weren't an mere additions. In fact, what you call esoteric symbolism is actually based on the Kabbalah. It is so inherent that without it there would be no Thoth. Each card has a meaning, but those meanings are far from arbitrary, they are the root and core of what the Golden Dawn was, and Crowley himself was first and foremost a Kabbalist. The "core" meaning of each card stems from it's place on the Sephiroths and Paths, together with it's astrological meaning which strengthens or weakens the Kabbalistic attribution. Now, although I don't use it, I have the greatest respect for the Marseilles, as it predates everything the GD did, and works well. So, no one is forcing you to learn the Kabbalah, just as the Thoth can be read intuitively with no studying at all, but it does give back in direct proportion to what you give it. Of course, there are different systems and different schools of thought, and about as many Trees as there are decks, but the Tree serves as important a function as the images themselves; to provoke thought, to see order in chaos, to build a structure to the universe. In fact, so important is the Kabbalah to the Thoth, that all those other things you mentioned, those are the things that were added on to, like I said, give more dimension. Ultimately you could think of each card as a story. Say you have a Prince of a Kingdom. You already know he's probably rich, and young, perhaps impatient and foolhardy. That's a slim character still; a story needs more "meat." The meat is that together with his youth, he is also very sensitive to other peoples' feeling, but also can be blunt and to the point, because of his inexperience, unlike his father. While he is young and childish, he is also heir to great secrets, of which he has learned just a little yet, but that little has made a direct link with his father whom he will one day replace. He also has a younger sister who he loves but feels slightly superior to, so he tried to teach her everything he can, but she is slower and more stupid than him, so it's uphill work. I could go on, but we already have many characteristics that make up the Prince of Cups, sitting in Tiphareth, with knowledge of both the lower world of his sister who sits in Malkuth and his parents who sit in Chochma and Binah respectively. It's all up to you, but the more you study, the more three dimensional your characters will be. Imagination needs impetus, food for thought, fuel. But yes, after that ramble, the key sentence is that the GD began with the Tree and then worked there way up from there, not the other way 'round. __________________ "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" Obi-wan Kenobi Last edited by closrapexa; 19-08-2012 at 19:15.

19-08-2012	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #17

Abrac Citizen Join Date: 13 Aug 2005 Location: USA Posts: 3,041	The outer symbolism is the top, and obvious layer. Occultists are always looking for confirmation that their ideas and insights are "correct." Numerology is one way of doing this. If the numerology "corresponds," that reinforces that he or she is on the "right track." Otherwise, they have to adjust their thinking to account for the new revelations. Personally I believe looking for confirmation through numerology and the like is a trap that leads to nowhere. But since your stated purpose of intellectual stimulation seems to actually be "tearing down," I'm sure you'll find fault with me as well, even though I tend to agree with you.

17-08-2012	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #11

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