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Citizen
Join Date: 03 Nov 2007
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I continue with my attempt to translate Etteilla’s Third Cahier. Here again are my abbreviations: S = from Stockman’s translation of Papus, the keywords on the bottom of Papus’s cards, and selections from the Etteille reversed word-lists. R = Revak’s translation of word-lists in Papus. F = keywords in French and English on the 1969 France Cartes Grand Etteilla I deck. D = keywords in French and English in booklet to Dusserre Grand Etteilla III deck. c. 1840 = “Julia Orsini” book with word-lists and keywords (same as D) in French. We are finishing the reversed meanings of the suit of coins. After that come his numbered comments on specific card meanings, referring back to numbers in parentheses (without asterisks) that he put in earlier. In that part, where Etteilla refers to cards by number, for ease in following him I put in brackets the meanings that he gave earlier for those cards. Numbers 6, 12 and 13 below have benefited from Lotus Padma's suggestions (I didn't ask about the rest). Quote:
Last edited by MikeH; 31-08-2012 at 07:21. Reason: revisions from Lotus Padma |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #21 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 03 Nov 2007
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Now for the next section of Etteila’s Third Cahier. This will finish up his initial discussion of the 78 cards. I am ready for a break. Added later: sections 19, 21, and the second paragraph of 15 have the benefit of Lotus Padma's revisions. Quote:
Last edited by MikeH; 31-08-2012 at 07:23. Reason: revisions from Lotus Padma |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #22 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 03 Nov 2007
Location: Oregon USA
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I continue now in my attempt to translate Corodil’s transcription of the Third Cahier. Since my previous post, I noticed that this whole section is almost word for word in Papus’s Tarot Divinatoire, of which I have Stockman's’ English translation (see pp. 244-247). I am trying to translate more literally than she does, with a resulting loss of clarity (because Etteilla is not the clearest of writers; or it might also be that Papus has done some translating of his own, from Etteilla-French to something clearer). When Stockman’s translation differs from mine, I will give her version and, unless it is obvious, the original French. I will also interrupt the translation when I want to make more extended comments. I will start where Papus starts, which means with the last few paragraphs of Corodil’s previous section: Quote:
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(1)Papus, or perhaps Stockman, has Etteilla saying that one tries up to three times, using rows A-C, to get a reading that answers the questions. It is the same number of rows that he has, more clearly, in a later method he gives with five cards in a row. (2)Based on “Julia Orsini” in the c. 1840 book (p. 44), the interpreter would be laying out five rows, each below the one preceding, and one reads the top row first, and if it doesn’t make sense, one goes to the next, etc. (Actually, that book has the interpreter lay out six rows; but the point is that there are more than three rows of seven each being laid out. In the Dusserre booklet, which is a heavily edited version of the c. 1840, this is pictured on p. 7.) (3) What Etteilla says literally: first you lay out three rows, then you try for a reading with the first row. If that doesn’t work, you lay out seven more cards, below the other three rows; if that doesn’t work, you lay out seven more; if that doesn’t work, you go to rows B and C that you’ve already laid out. The result is five rows, but the second and third tries at readings are laid out after the other three. I emphasize this part, however many rows there are, because in modern books on cartomancy, almost all of which derive from Etteilla, it is usually not said to start over when you get a reading that doesn’t make sense; and the Etteilla decks' booklets, except the Dusserre, are the same. You are apparently expected to use your “intuition” to make the interpretation of the card part of a coherent reading. At the most, a book will advise you to put down one or more cards to clarify one that is obscure. And you will usually not be given examples where such a procedure is appropriate. I have found only one historical source that does give an example of an incoherent reading, requiring one to go to start with a completely new interpretation using another row. It is in the c. 1840 “Julia Orsini” book (omitted from Dusserre's edited version), pp. 44-45. I reproduced these pages at http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...3&postcount=54. My discussion there may be hard to follow, as I discuss other things besides the point at issue here. So here is a synopsis: P. 45 begins by interpreting the row given on p. 44: 63.30.64.77.44.13.42...8, with cards 44 and 63 reversed. The 8 is there automatically in this book, because the reading is for a female. From right to left, it comes out: In relation to the querent (8) (she happens to be a blond girl), a blond girl (42) has marriage (13) in the future (44 reversed) with happiness (77) with a dark-haired man (64) with fortune (30) and there will be pregnancy (63 reversed). All of this makes sense and hopefully is good news. But if instead of 64, “brown-haired man”, the sixth card (out of eight, or fifth card not counting the 8) was 33, “woman of the country”, the reading would be contre-sense, i.e. nonsense (at least in 18th century France where women did not marry each other). In any case, it is not clear what such a person has to do with the rest of the sentence formed by the cards. So we start over, using the second line. I resume: Quote:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Rj0S9pZrNH.../IMG_0510a.jpg In case you can’t access this link, here is a detailed description of the diagram: Etteilla uses numbers to indicate how the cards are to be placed. As I read it, first one lays out eleven cards in the column on one’s right, going from the bottom up; then come eleven more in the column on the left, also going from the bottom up; then eleven more in a row at the top, from right to left. Then a circle in the middle is formed in three parts: the first section, with the label “Past” between it and the right-hand column, is on the reader’s lower right, but laid out from the side of the enquirer, from right to left, 11 cards; the next, with the label “Present” between them and the “capital” row on top, from the reader’s perspective, 11 more cards, from right to left from the reader’s perspective; then 11 more cards on the reader’s lower left, but laid out from the enquirer’s perspective, from the enquirer’s right to his or her left, with “Future” between them and the left column. The top of each card, as it comes off the deck, faces inward in the circle. I resume: Quote:
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A too-severely edited version of Etteilla’s methods in laying out the cards, including a variant of the 67 card spread using all 78 cards and one other method not mentioned by Etteilla in the 3rd Cahier, is at http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/ftc/ftc21.htm. We are fortunate to now have Etteilla himself—or at least I assume it’s Etteilla! Last edited by MikeH; 31-08-2012 at 05:54. |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #23 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 03 Nov 2007
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 320
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I continue with my effort to translte Etteilla’s 3rd Cahier. We are now in new territory, thoughts that have not been repeated in various translated works. And at the same time, it is Etteilla in a more obscure style—perhaps more profound, as well. Since he is difficult for me to understand, he is also difficult for me to translate. He is talking about the tarot-interpreter and the tarot-consultant as human beings, the first likely an ignorant person—not to mention perhaps drunk or lazy--even with the Book of Thoth in his or her possession, with cards like 19, Prison, and 20, (Good) Fortune, in the same reading. The consultant is perhaps more thoughtful but also more anxious, especially when seeing such cards. Yet the consultant sees his whole life reflected back to him by the interpreter. But it is from a certain point of view: An ignorant interpreter’s political views and other biases and character traits can affect the reading. And such an ignoramus can learn much from the anxious person’s manner of presenting himself, his face and his questions, which the interpreter then reflects back to the consultant. But I will let Etteila speak for himself. The first paragraph below has the benefit of Lotus Padma's suggestions: Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by MikeH; 31-10-2012 at 17:35. Reason: adding Lotus Padma's suggestions |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #24 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 03 Nov 2007
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 320
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Now I continue with the 3rd Cahier, with his discussion of Justice and Temperance. The first three paragraphs below were included in the c. 1840 “Julia Orsini” book, as a footnote to its explication of the card. Since I had already translated this bit (http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...&postcount=100), I was saved a little work. Etteilla’s footnotes may be found at the end of the post: Quote:
But I'm still not sure about the pronouns in this first paragraph below: him, her, it, his, hers, himself, etc. In French these are not obvious on their face, as the ending is often either omitted or agrees with the noun it modifies rather than the noun it substitutes for. Expressions like "de lui"--of him or of it, if the noun is masculine, should help, but they don't if the nouns "lui" might refer to are all masculine. There's no neuter in French. So what I have done is put what I think makes sense, based on what I think Etteilla is trying to say, and then in brackets what Lotus Padma--who doesn't know Etteilla--thinks makes sense based on French usage. There is also an issue about what "mâne" means here. Normally the word refers to spirits of the dead; but I think that in this case it should be translated just "spirit", because it means something like the kind of spirit that he talks about at the end of the paragraph, that which inspired the great artists, their Génie or "genius", a kind of angelic presence. In another work (see my post at http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...&postcount=250) he applies the word Génie to spirits under one of the 72 angels of Kabbalah. They are personal, there to assist a person in some way, in that way like the "lares" or household gods of the Romans, to which the term "mâne" originally applied, according to the dictionaries and Wikipedia. I'd appreciate knowing what others, especially those fluent in French, think about these various points. Lotus Padma also clarified the terms with which Etteilla describes Temperance's clothing (in the paragraph starting "This noble Virtue..."--for which I am grateful. For a picture of Etteilla’s Temperance, see my post at http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...&postcount=101. Quote:
In the engravings at the front of this and the other Cahiers, the word “Thot” does not appear on the belt of Temperance or indeed of any of the virtues (see Holbronn’s Astrologie du Livre de Thot, pp. 6-7 of the essay accompanying his reprint of the 4th Cahier, which reproduces all four; you can also inspect the frontispieces for Cahier 1 (Justice) and 3 (Temperance) at http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...&postcount=100 and http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...&postcount=101). My scan of the frontispiece of Cahier 2 also shows no belt. But as early as the 1789 set of cards obtained by Depaulis, of which all four virtue cards are shown in Wicked Pack of Cards, Temperance is shown with “THOT” on her belt, and all the other virtue cards as well with the same, just as Etteilla specified in the 3rd Cahier. On the cards reprinted by France Cartes/Grimaud, however, the word “THOT” can be clearly seen on Temperance’s and Strength’s belts, and the final “T” on Justice’s, but clearly nothing on the belt of Prudence (see posts 100, 101, 105, 108 in the thread already cited). For an enlargement of Depaulis's Prudence card, where "THOT" does appear, see my post at http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...&postcount=255.) Etteilla’s point about Temperance pertaining to all the virtues, and not just those of the body, and being the most essential virtue, governing the rest, was one made frequently in texts on the virtues, as Lynn White has documented (pp. 187ff of Medieval Religion and Technology: Collected Essays, at http://books.google.com/books?id=quC...page&q&f=false, a reference I owe to M. J. Hurst). (It was an application of Aristotle’s doctrine that the virtues are means between two extremes.) It may be in part for that reason that the position of Temperance went from being the lowest virtue in the early listings (corresponding to the ranking of the body below the soul and the spirit) to being the highest in the Marseille. Etteilla says (footnote 26) that Temperance’s wings were supposed to show all seven colors. That didn’t happen, but the cardmaker did do it perfectly on another card, he says. I do not know what the other card would be. Possibly it was the Judgment card, which has many colors in the robes of the people below, as well as also having an angel. You might wonder how in 1782 Etteilla can be talking about an actual deck: was his deck, in full color, actually published by then? And besides this reference, there is the P.S. to his footnote 2, which also gives Etteilla's address. I think this particular copy of the 3rd Cahier must be a reprint, with this part changed. At the end of the book all four cahiers are listed plus the deck itself; but the 4th Cahier wasn't published until 17 (85. And in footnote 5, he gives people instructions on how to modify their World card so that it looks the way it should look, i.e. "*5. Remove the oval Cartouche, & put in its place a Serpent having its head in its mouth... & in place of two miserable blades of grass, put two pyramids of 59 measures, because the figure had some 121; & in agreement with all the Wise, you will conceive that this figure was surrounded by seven stars." Also, in the Supplement to Cahier 1, he is apologizing for not having the "restored hieroglyphs": "The author's intention was to have the 78 hieroglyphs of the Book of Thoth engraved, as closely to the original ones as would have been possible, but having calculated the cost, the fatigue, the general taste of the world, he has preferred to leave this enterprise to posterity" (Wicked Pack p. 89). In Wicked Pack of Cards,, the first deck is dated to 1789. This is based on the author's copy of letters to Etteilla by a disciple, Charles Geille-Saint-Leger de Bonrecueille in Lyons, one of 27 November 1788, "I am very glad to hear that we will soon have the Tarot cards you have restored", and another of 14 March 1789, "We very satisfactorily have received the Tarot cards which you sent us..." (Wicked Pack p. 91). That seems fairly conclusive. The device of having the card speak for itself, which we see charmingly in the case of Temperance, was used to good effect recently by Jodorowsky for all the cards in his Way of Tarot. Last edited by MikeH; 03-09-2012 at 09:51. Reason: Changes: to go to them, find "dense" and then "fashion" |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #25 |
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Messages!
Join Date: 23 Feb 2012
Location: Somewhere between two seas
Posts: 4,342
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post removed by me. I did want to help in a small way, but am pressed for time. Please do forgive. __________________ L' éssentiel est invisible pour les yeux. - Antoine de St-Exupéry, Le Petit Prince. I'm not needy. I'm wanty. "You are terrifying and strange and beautiful. Something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire Last edited by Lotus Padma; 28-08-2012 at 15:41. |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #26 |
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Resident
Join Date: 04 Jul 2012
Location: AR, USA
Posts: 7
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Thank you so much!
Wow! I've been looking for this book for SOOO long! Thank you for posting it!!! |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #27 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 03 Nov 2007
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 320
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Here is my attempt to translate the last part of the 3rd Cahier. I imposed on Lotus Padma to correct one line of thought of four paragraphs near the end (starting "What a fine balance...") that I could not make sense of. From this clear and precise reworking of those paragraphs, I am conscious of how amateurish my own efforts are. Hopefully what I have not run by Lotus is good enough to convey more or less what Etteilla is saying. Those who want more at least have the French. And if someone has a bette translation of any of it, I will not feel bad if you post it. Also, Lotus says that many nuances in Etteilla's prose are inevitably lost in translation. I should perhaps also say that when Etteilla used the word "hieroglyph" he was using a term that was not then understood to refer exclusively to Egyptian writing. The word was understood to mean a form of writing in pictures whereby a single picture conveyed a complex, even on some levels mysterious meaning. Tarot cards were spoken of as hieroglyphs. For more on this term, see Ross Caldwell's opening post at http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=94755, and my documentation toward the end of that thread, that this meaning was in place no later than around 1450. Quote:
Last edited by MikeH; 29-08-2012 at 07:52. |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #28 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 29 Dec 2003
Location: Nr. Ephesus, Turkey
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Great job, thank you! __________________ "I am a diviner, but a poor one." |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #29 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 03 Nov 2007
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 320
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Thanks, Kwaw, but really, what I have put together, except when I have had the benefit of other translators (including Lotus Padma here), is only a couple of steps removed from a translation machine. I have tried to indicate, in my comments--including, for Lotus, the "reason for editing" space--when I have used such a more reliable source. Otherwise, I am not sure, although I do think that what I have done is mostly at least close to his meaning. From Lotus Padma I thankfully have better translations now for around 20 of the paragraphs I found most difficult, which I am still integrating into the text. Hopefully I'll be done by the weekend. Added later: done today; not such a big job. Last edited by MikeH; 31-08-2012 at 07:25. |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #30 |
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