Sequence of the Cross Cards

[Barleywine]

I couldn't find anything specific about this question with advanced search, although I know a prior thread must be out there. I learned the Celtic Cross spread from Eden Gray's books way back in 1971 and have done it the same way since. Her take on the "cross" portion of the spread was to place the peripheral cards with Card 3 at the bottom, Card 4 to the left, Card 5 at the top and Card 6 to the right of the central group (adjacent to the "staff"). This always made sense to me since these cards were viewed as a "timeline" and this sequence mimics the diurnal motion of the Sun: midnight at the bottom, dawn to the left (or East as in an astrological chart), noon at the top and sunset to the right (or West).

A.E. Waite and many more recent writers use a cross arrangement that looks uncomfortably like a Catholic "Stations of the Cross" sequence (Card 3 at the top, Card 4 at the bottom, Card 5 to the right and Card 6 to the left). Other writers swap the position of Cards 5 and 6; I suppose - if this is in fact an intentional Christian allusion - that it depends on whether you see yourself as standing within the cross (like Adam Kadmon in the Tree of Life), or whether you view it as watching the process from outside. I'm resolutely non-Christian (or non-anything orthodox, really), so this strikes me as a veiled - and unnecessary - religious overtone. I'm perfectly content with the diurnal model. After all, most of us (if we have a choice) get up shortly after dawn (sunrise as the recent past), are most active by noon (which I consider the present, or "realm of possibilities and opportunities") and wind up our day around sunset (which holds the provisional resolution of the near future)

I know it doesn't matter as long as you're consistent in how you do it, but has anyone else considered the philosophical basis for the sequence they use?

[tarotbear]

In my version of the Celtic Cross - done to simplify it for the Querent - The #3 to #6 cards are laid out in clockwise order: #3 at 12 o'clock, #4 at 3 o'clock, #5 and 6 o'clock, and #6 at 9 o'clock. IMHO, it doesn't matter what you do as long as you are consistant in your practice and reading. In the thread on the 'Tales of the Darkside', two readers place the 'Septre' across the top of the layout - probably for TV visual purposes.

Be consistant.

I knew someone who laid out the cards in one order but read them in a different order! Shouldn't the 4th card off the deck be the 4th card you read? She had her own way of doing things, so whatever works for you works for you.

[Barleywine]

Originally Posted by tarotbear

In my version of the Celtic Cross - done to simplify it for the Querent - The #3 to #6 cards are laid out in clockwise order: #3 at 12 o'clock, #4 at 3 o'clock, #5 and 6 o'clock, and #6 at 9 o'clock.

Just curious. Do you put Card #3 at 12 o'clock and work clockwise so a querent sitting across the table from you can see the cards laid out in the same order the reader would see them in the Eden Gray method? If that's the objective, do you then put Card #7 at the top of the staff/scepter and work down to Card #10 at the bottom? I usually have the querent sit next to me if at all possible, so this consideration doesn't enter in. Interesting thought, though. I'm wondering if card orientation (upright or reversed) should also be flip-flopped so the querent sees them in the same way they were drawn from the deck. Flipping them off the deck end-to-end rather than side-to-side would accomplish this.

[tarotbear]

I usually sit the Querent next to me, not across from me. They like to see the cards, too, and they should see them the way we see them, IMHO.

If they are on my left, I run the Septre up the Left side, closest to them;seat them on my right, up the Right side - with the #7 at the bottom and build upwards.

I always flip my cards 'book' or 'page' fashion - NEVER end over end!

[N1ghts0ng]

Wow tarotbear, this was very interesting to read. I never thought of having the querent sit next to me before... hehe, never crossed my mind that the querent could sit anywhere other than across from me. it makes sense to allow them to see the cards the way i see them, rather than having them look at the cards upside down.
i think this also allows for more interaction and a more personal feel when doing readings, rather than reader on one side, querent on the other, and a physical barrier (the reading table) between the two.

as for me, how i lay out cards 3-6 in a CC is starting with card 3 on the bottom (6 o'clock position), card 4 to the left (9 o'clock position), card 5 on the top (12 o'clock position), and card 6 to the right (3 o'clock) position

and i too flip cards book/page style rather than head-over-heels...

Originally Posted by tarotbear

I usually sit the Querent next to me, not across from me. They like to see the cards, too, and they should see them the way we see them, IMHO.

If they are on my left, I run the Septre up the Left side, closest to them;seat them on my right, up the Right side - with the #7 at the bottom and build upwards.

I always flip my cards 'book' or 'page' fashion - NEVER end over end!

[Amanda_04]

I do it the same way as you Barleywine, but I never really thought about why- it just felt like the right thing to do, to start at the bottom and work my way around clock-wise... but your thoughts on the sun's progression throughout the day make sense to me, I like that.

[a_gnostic]

I'm glad you brought this up, because it's driving me nuts as a beginner who's trying to learn about the Celtic Cross when there seem to be different ways to do it based on whom you consult.

For example, Waite in Pictorial Key to the Tarot and Tracy Porter in Tarot–The Definitive Guide lay them out this way:

             10
      3
              9
  6   1   5
     2        8
      4
              7

Rachel Pollack in Tarot Wisdom and Joan Bunning in Learning Tarot: A Tarot Book for Beginners lay them out this way:

             10
      5
              9
  4   1   6
     2        8
      3
              7

The Learning the Tarot website does it yet another way:

             10
      5
              9
  6   1   3
     2        8
      4
              7

That's not the worst of it, though, because discounting the numbers and considering only the relative positions, there are differences.

• Waite and Porter generally agree with each other on the meanings of corresponding positions.
• Pollack differs from Waite in that she calls "Near Future" what he calls "What is behind him" and her "Past" is his "What is before him".
• Learning the Tarot differs from Waite by calling "Recent past" what he calls "What is beneath him". Pollack calls it "Root", or past experience, while her more recent past (card 4) is either Learning the Tarot's Distant past (3) or Immediate Future (6).

It seems that everywhere I look (Internet, books, and LWBs), someone has a different way to do it.

I understand that you can make up your own spreads and that it doesn't matter what the positions are so long as you "anticipate them" while handling the cards (somehow, mystically). But is it so wrong to have a standard? Shouldn't Waite's spread layout be considered more authoritative than contemporary authors', and why do some of the most popular authors differ from Waite in seemingly fundamental ways? Was Celtic Cross first described by Waite, or are there earlier references?

I guess I could come up with my own interpretation of the layout using some form of mnemonic associations, but this kind of thing is terribly confusing for a newcomer. What makes it particularly frustrating is when you look to more than one source to get a different perspective on what should be the same thing but isn't.

Does anyone have some insights into all this variation? Shouldn't "tradition" have the quality of being constant over time?

[PathWalker]

I'm with Pollack and Greer, and always have done it that way as it seems logical to me.

None of these "traditions" are older than 100 years, so I think it might still be at the flux stage - internal logic but personal consistency is what really matters I think.

[a_gnostic]

Originally Posted by Barleywine

I couldn't find anything specific about this question with advanced search, although I know a prior thread must be out there...

Perhaps this is the thread of which you were thinking: our personal version of the Celtic Cross

I will probably follow your lead, Pathwalker, particularly if Pollack, Greer, and Bunning all agree with each other. They do offer rich interpretations of the positions, and it's useful to compare and contrast them.