A Good Tarot for Relationships? (Preferably gay ones?)

[tarotbear]

It is wonderful to find so many AT-ers coming out of the closet!

Grizz - Could you make a gay man's Tarot and make it work?
+ + +
My point was just that the "hetero" decks don't exactly portray "hetero" very well, either, but I guess we have to make do with what we get.

I am not completely sure. "Gay" is not the 'umbrella term' Straight people make it out to be. Gay men do not perceive the world or their relationships the same way Lesbians perceive their world and relationships, merely because they are both 'gay.' It's not like (for example) you were born in Scotland and meet someone on the street and find they were also born in Scotland - so there is a 'connection' between you that Scottish people not born in Scotland don't have. Gays and Lesbians occupy different worlds, some which overlap; many don't.

To put that into cards in a universal format (gays and lesbians, not Scots born in Scotland!) would not ring true for 'all' gays and lesbians the same way you say that 'hetero decks don't exactly portray hetero very well, either." Well - earlier I said that comment about blond 20-somethings having no relation to my 'Bear' world, just as Mike made the comment about partying Martini drinkers - that concept of 'You have to be young and attractive to be gay' doesn't work for me any more than that 'barefoot and pregnant' imagery works for you.

{{I just want to make a point that my book 'Every Man's Tarot' and maybe it's future companion deck are not specifically gay but 'male-centric.' There are still females in my male-centric deck - the HP, Justice, Star, The Queens - even in the Two Cups - but the rest of the cards all have male-only characters. }}

[closrapexa]

Like I said, I love decks such as the Gay Tarot, but to be completely honest, it doesn't really show me my own gay life, but that I feel is a symptom with many decks that go into too many specifics. I don't remember which, but there is a "coming out" card that never really spoke to me with its drama and lightning. My own coming out was actually dull and un-dramatic. This is the reason I don't use it much, as it relates to me a lot less than supposedly heterosexual decks.

In my opinion Tarot isn't about definite occurrences but about abstract ideas, at least from the point of view of the deck itself. The reader is the one who must distill those ideas into a coherent story. If the symbolism used is heterosexual, well, I don't disagree with it. However liberal I may be, I know where babies come from naturally and it makes sense that Tarot should follow that symbolism as it does, abstractly. This is why I favor highly esoteric and abstract decks like the Thoth which are far more open to interpretation than the specifically exoteric Gay Tarot. Not to mention that although decks are labeled as "gay," in terms of symbolism they really aren't, such as the Lovers card in the Gay Tarot. It does show two men, but with a sun and moon behind them, symbolic of male and female. I have yet to see any gender-specific deck that dealt with the symbolism satisfactorily. That RWS Two of Cups is actually more androgynous than that because of its alchemical symbolism showing merely the merging of disparate elements.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by closrapexa

Not to mention that although decks are labeled as "gay," in terms of symbolism they really aren't, such as the Lovers card in the Gay Tarot. It does show two men, but with a sun and moon behind them, symbolic of male and female.

On that card, I was trying to suggest that people can come together despite, or because of, their differences, and also that those differences can create as profound a connection in same-sex couples as in straight couples. The different ethnicities of the two men were meant to suggest outer differences, and the sun and the moon were meant to suggest inner differences (i.e. different temperaments, or perhaps inner differences created by different outer environments [i.e. cultures etc.]).

So in this card, the sun and the moon certainly do not symbolize male and female, at least not in my mind. In my view, the whole point of symbols is that they can be interpreted differently by different people, or in different contexts, and no one interpretation will completely explain the symbol's mystery. So to me it seems kind of limiting to suggest that the sun and the moon must be symbolic of male and female even in the context of a gay deck.

[Tarotwolf]

Try the International Icon Tarot. It's easy to use if your'e familiar with the RWS deck and all the "people" depicted in the deck are gender neutral. Make them whatever you like.

It would be a fun exercise to pull a few cards you like and write down what you feel the card is telling you while in your mind you have firmly pictured that card's character to be a specific gender. Continue this process where all the cards are given characters with the same gender. Set these cards aside for a few days then repeat the exercise picturing the opposite gender on each card. It might be surprising what results show up!

[Winterchild]

I think Mike, your covalent and ionic analogy was neat... but I guess it depends if we are talking physically or not.

I believe we all have varying amounts of energy from both the male and female poles and these energies individually reach out for their opposite energies... but of course finding those opposite energies that fit like a jigsaw with yours, in one person is not so easy. Trying to label things and put them in boxes just doesn't work. I don't really like anything that is prescribed as being for a particular type... I prefer to find my own way.... because whatever our gender or sexual identity.. we are still all different.... so only one aspect of our differences is covered. Anyway I am getting brain addled.

I kind of like the term "queer" I think.... as in its traditional meaning, of being strange or odd from the conventional stance...., rather than gay. So I would look for *queer* decks...

I love the Deviant Moon... which I find very androgynous and wonderfully twisted, and yet romantic in a very deep and touching sense.. it kind of reaches the parts that other decks can't for me.... without trying. I like the Vargo Gothic, and Guardians too. I am very much looking forward to my Victorian Romantic having read the reviews here.

I hope you find the deck of your dreams....iPowers



When the door says Push... I cannot resist pulling....

[closrapexa]

Originally Posted by Lee

On that card, I was trying to suggest that people can come together despite, or because of, their differences, and also that those differences can create as profound a connection in same-sex couples as in straight couples. The different ethnicities of the two men were meant to suggest outer differences, and the sun and the moon were meant to suggest inner differences (i.e. different temperaments, or perhaps inner differences created by different outer environments [i.e. cultures etc.]).

I'm sorry if it sounded as if I were ragging on your deck, as I positively adore it as a whole, really! And I see your point as to that card. In fact, that is the only card that stuck out to me in that context. Strange to say (and please tell me if this TMI) I use it after having sex. If it's good sex, I usually get the Moon for some reason

[LRichard]

Obviously, gender differences, as signified by Fire and Water, Sun and Moon, Gold and Silver, Active and Passive, or whatever, are not necessarily biological. We are all psychologically androgynous, although one of the genders may be dominant.

[MikeTheAltarboy]

Originally Posted by LRichard

Obviously, gender differences, as signified by Fire and Water, Sun and Moon, Gold and Silver, Active and Passive, or whatever, are not necessarily biological. We are all psychologically androgynous, although one of the genders may be dominant.

To state further, - "gender" means "category", not sex. See "genre", "genus"... If Polarity is sometimes expressed in sexual terms ("masculine", "feminine") - that does not imply that it is best, or exclusively portrayed in those terms.

(And I maintain that my coupling is based *not* on polarity, but on commonality. ;-) )

[closrapexa]

Originally Posted by MikeTheAltarboy

To state further, - "gender" means "category", not sex. See "genre", "genus"... If Polarity is sometimes expressed in sexual terms ("masculine", "feminine") - that does not imply that it is best, or exclusively portrayed in those terms.

(And I maintain that my coupling is based *not* on polarity, but on commonality. ;-) )

I don't disagree with that, but how "politically correct" should Tarot be in order to satisfy everyone? The International Icon is a great example, but it does favor neutrality above all else, even artistic design, not to mention that it would be a dull world if all decks were like it. I have a tendency to put my foot in my mouth, but in many cases the more "niche" a deck is, the more I feel it talks down to me, which is perhaps the opposite of its intent.

In older decks, while the PKT is blatantly hetero-centric, the Book of Thoth isn't, and neither are the cards. The bisexuality of its creator really shines through for me, although it couldn't be considered a niche deck.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by closrapexa

I'm sorry if it sounded as if I were ragging on your deck, as I positively adore it as a whole, really! And I see your point as to that card. In fact, that is the only card that stuck out to me in that context. Strange to say (and please tell me if this TMI) I use it after having sex. If it's good sex, I usually get the Moon for some reason

Im typing this on a Kindle Fire, so please forgive typos. I actually don't mind criticisms of the deck - I'm grateful when anyone e talks about it at all, positively or negatively! I do appreciate yours and others' kind words about the deck. I just wanted to make that one point about the sun/moon thing. That symbology has some personal meaning to me, as you can tell from my avatar.

Regarding your, umm, interesting use of the Lovers and Moon cards - well, why not?