Hades moon?

[strangebrew]

Hello i am interested in gathering info on the hades moon (moon conj pluto) especially in scorpio. Can anyone throw light on this for me please?

[Minderwiz]

HI,

I was expecting that a Pluto groupie would have answered your query by now, but as they haven't I'll put in some information for you. However please note that I don't use Pluto in my Astrology and therefore I am trying to be either objective or clearly showing my opinions, which you should not treat as fact

You might find the following book helpful (or at least have a look at the author's website)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hades-Moon-P...9812368&sr=8-1

http://www.judyhall.co.uk/

The book description includes the key phrase:

{i]'Astrologer Judy Hall uses mythology, archetypal symbolism, and case histories to provide insights into the relationship between the intimate and emotional moon, and the remote, deeply enigmatic Pluto.[/i]

I have to declare a disagreement with this approach. Astrology is in no way based on Mythology (indeed the Astrologers of classical Greece and Rome, did not bother with Mythology as a basis for their Astrology). Also 'archetypal symbolism' is a Jungian concept, not an Astrological one, and Astrology is not based on Jungian psychology, indeed quite the reverse. So treat this very carefully. I don't think it's good Astrology. That's a personal opinion and given your interest in the subject both therse sources may well need to be examined.

Judy Hall seems to include all aspects between Moon and Pluto Now that comes down to 8 major aspects every 27.3 days or one aspect every 3.5 days If you allow a six degree orb (not particularly large) about half the people born on each of those days will have this feature in their charts. Indeed as Pluto is the slowest 'planet' and the one retrograde the most often, the Moon/Pluto aspect is very likely the most common Moon/Planet aspect. The Moon/Sun cycle for example takes 29.5 days and on average Moon/Mercy and Moon/Venus will be the same.

Scorpio can be involved in two ways. The most likely is Moon in Scorpio. Clearly as the Moon visits Scorpio once in every cycle it's likely to make a major aspect to Pluto when it's in any of the following signs;Scorpio, Taurus, Leo, Cancer, Pisces, Virgo and Capricorn.

The other is the one that you mention, Pluto in Scorpio. Because of it's highly eliptical orbit, Pluto actually spends very little time in the sign that modern Astrologers associate with it. It was last there between September 1984 and August 1995 (though you will find a couple of ventures in and out jjust before and during that time frame). Pluto won't return to Scorpio till well into the 23rd century. So you would have the Moon/Pluto conjunction in Scorpio once every 27,3 days during that period and of course the seven other major aspects to Pluto in Scorpio.

Incidentally I have a separating opposition between Moon and Pluto, of 7 degrees, that is within the traditional orb for the Moon. Make of that what you will

[dadsnook2000]

I am also not a "Pluto Groupie" and I seldom use signs in my astrological work. So, when this post appeared I did not see it as an interesting question. Unlike Minderwiz, I do use the outer planets and I sometimes "look" at the minor planets. But mostly I avoid asteroids and centaurs and Kupier belt objects.

Pluto, IMO, seems to have little relevance to many UNLESS it is tightly aspected into one's natal chart or is closely aspected to the Sun and Moon. "Tight" is a degree or two", "close" is three or four degree for my use. Then, Pluto can be considered as potentially being "personal". Generally, Pluto is a social influence and unless our life and work is tied up in social movements or unless we freak out and get involved in some extreme public act, Pluto will only be found in some quiet and corrosive situation such as depression (with the Moon and Mercury, for example) or some hidden fears that feeds other issues.

Quick transits of the Moon to a natal Pluto is not likely to trigger chaotic events for most people most times. As Minderwiz noted, the Moon whips by Pluto all of our lives. It would require many other factors to also be active in one's chart in order to find Pluto being a part of our obvious daily life. All of that said, literature often provides examples to the contrary. I can only say that life is not totally astrology. If one's life does not provide the ongoing context for Pluto to play a role within, then life will typically pass by any Pluto influence. Except for those rare times. Dave

[strangebrew]

Originally Posted by dadsnook2000

I am also not a "Pluto Groupie" and I seldom use signs in my astrological work. So, when this post appeared I did not see it as an interesting question. Unlike Minderwiz, I do use the outer planets and I sometimes "look" at the minor planets. But mostly I avoid asteroids and centaurs and Kupier belt objects.

Pluto, IMO, seems to have little relevance to many UNLESS it is tightly aspected into one's natal chart or is closely aspected to the Sun and Moon. "Tight" is a degree or two", "close" is three or four degree for my use. Then, Pluto can be considered as potentially being "personal". Generally, Pluto is a social influence and unless our life and work is tied up in social movements or unless we freak out and get involved in some extreme public act, Pluto will only be found in some quiet and corrosive situation such as depression (with the Moon and Mercury, for example) or some hidden fears that feeds other issues.

Quick transits of the Moon to a natal Pluto is not likely to trigger chaotic events for most people most times. As Minderwiz noted, the Moon whips by Pluto all of our lives. It would require many other factors to also be active in one's chart in order to find Pluto being a part of our obvious daily life. All of that said, literature often provides examples to the contrary. I can only say that life is not totally astrology. If one's life does not provide the ongoing context for Pluto to play a role within, then life will typically pass by any Pluto influence. Except for those rare times. Dave

Thanks so much guys for this. Would you put much store (in view of your view of pluto) on a very tight conjunction between Venus and Pluto in synastry (a one degree orb). this aspect has seemed to cause lots of attention in the past?

[Minderwiz]

I agree with Dave on tight orbs. It's bad enough with natal Astrology but when you move into synastry using a wider aspect can be foolish. Take your Venus/Pluto aspect. A lot of psychological Astrologers would take conjunctions, squares or oppositions as an indicator (though not proof) of an abusive relationship. If we consider the person with the Venus position, and allow a 'normal' aspect of 8 degrees for a Conjunction, we should be aware that a Pluto position that qualifies for the conjunction would be in the charts of everybody in the world born over a 10 to 20 year period (depending on Pluto's position by sign). That reduces the aspect to meaningless for providing real information about their relationship. Clearly the converse does not apply for the person with the Pluto position, though again due to the slow movement, there will be people born over a short period of time, perhaps 8 days but in each of 10 to 16 years. Still a significant number of births.

Even allowing a one degree orb will still involve everyone born over a period of one to two years approximately (again dependent on sign). As Dave points out Pluto is a generational 'planet' and the Venus person might share the same aspect with many of their friends, work colleagues, and neighbours, to say nothing of the wider community.

If you're going to use it in synastry be very careful to look at the faster moving planets first, these are the ones that will differentiate two individuals from the rest of the community, or at least narrow down to a very small group

You might also want to consider, where Pluto is in your chart. An angular conjunction, all other things being equal, is far more important than a sextile involving a cadent house. Even if the former is an arc of 1 degree and the latter is exact.

Pluto gets a very bad write up by psychological Astrologers who see it connected with all sorts of negative behaviour, psychological problems, anti-social attitudes, etc. That might be true within the narrow band of clients they deal with (though I seriously doubt it) but it's not true of society as a whole. People have now grown to expect horrible things to happen with Pluto transits and indeed will put all sorts of problems down to it's malefic influence. Like Retrograde Mercury it gets blamed for lots of things which are almost certainly not its fault LOL

Venus on the other hand is seen as a nice friendly, romantic, good kind butter wouldn't melt in its atmosphere planet. Yet traditionally Venus when debilitated was associated with drunkenness, debauchery, gambling, STDs and wild living (and other things that a family website should not be privy to ) Neptune now has the unfortunate burden of this sort of behaviour but Sex Drugs and Rock 'n'Roll are really Venal (from Venus) pursuits.

My point is that attitudes to planets have changed, based on little real understanding of why planets like Venus could be negative as well as positive and their baggage transferred to the outers. I'm coming to the conclusion that we need to rethink these planets and their role and look at rehabilitating them from their psychological trauma. One way might be to look at their modern meanings, find out which planets they were derived from (usually a combination of two or more) and treat them in the same sort of way that we used to treat Fixed Stars, which were similarly seen as being similar to a combination of planets.

As Dave indicates, sign would no longer be important for them, what would matter would be location by house, and close conjunction with the traditional 7. I remember that quite some time ago Dave posted his view of the nature of the planet and that seems to me like a good starting point for the rehabilitation of Pluto et al.

Sorry to be a bit rambling but I do think that we need to end the knee jerk reaction to Pluto. Give the dwarf a chance

[dadsnook2000]

As I am proofing and editing my current book on using precession-corrected Solar Returns and the in-between date Progressed Daily Angles charts I have already started a second book concerning transiting Moon to natal Sun Return charts. One issue that concerned me greatly in my research for this second book was how planets were typically interpreted. Their current "typical" interpretation seems to be heavily "psychological" and "humanistic" due to some major current trends.

It seems that every astrologer wants to be a counselor. Has everyone forgot to be an predictive-capable astrologer?

The point of this question is that we seem to overlook the teachings of Carter and Vivian Robson of the early 1900's. Planets in houses need to be viewed in a context of daily life. Everyday planets is the term I use.

Take Mars for example. Say "Mars" and some immediately thing of anger, danger, hurts, blood loss, etc. In everyday life, Mars is better understood in terms of competitiveness, in being very "present" in a situation (such as a role model, a moderator, a leader, etc.), or being loud and pushy (in a social sense), or of hurting from an inflammation or dental work. When we blend these meanings with a house position we get more effective understandings of astrology. Mars in the second house might be actively working to increase one's holdings or stopping a thief from stealing a possession. Mars in the fifth is typically seen as participating in a physical sporting event, but it can be taking on a challenge that will build one's confidence (the 5th is the 4th of the 2nd house) or to offer help to a child.

We need to understand the CONTEXT of the chart-subject's life and current activities in order to nuance the planets and the houses of the chart. That's my view. Dave

[strangebrew]

Thanks gents!

Elements of this sound a tad too technical for me but i will try and digest all you write and appreciate your time and input!

[Minderwiz]

Originally Posted by strangebrew

Thanks gents!

Elements of this sound a tad too technical for me but i will try and digest all you write and appreciate your time and input!

Neither of us take what is, or was a mainstream view in the Astrology of the last 50 years. To that extent it's going to be a little demanding to think through our posts. I want to make some points about Dave's post and that may help me point you in the right direction.

Originally Posted by dadsnook2000

..... Their current "typical" interpretation seems to be heavily "psychological" and "humanistic" ......
It seems that every astrologer wants to be a counselor. Has everyone forgot to be an predictive-capable astrologer?

I think Dave has put his finger on it here. Astrology should be about being able to make predictions, be they natal, elective, mundane, horary, etc. That was how it originated and that is how it ran for over 2,000 years. The big problem has been the persecution of Astrology from the mid 18th Century onwards as being both fake and concerned with 'fortune telling'. The effect was to force Astrologers to concentrate on personality assessment and sadly when times changed again in the mid 20th Century, Astrologers have not returned to that purpose. It's a shame and I think both Dave and I want to see Astrology looking at 'real world' predictions rather than psycho babble about how you might be feeling this year.

Originally Posted by dadsnook2000

Planets in houses need to be viewed in a context of daily life. Everyday planets is the term I use.....We need to understand the CONTEXT of the chart-subject's life and current activities in order to nuance the planets and the houses of the chart. That's my view. Dave

Exactly so. Planets are significators of everyday events and few people lead melodramatic lives that resemble the plots of Dallas or Eastenders. For most people life is largely much the same from day to day with occasional high or low points. That's what an Astrologer should recognise and work from. Yes, some may be trained psychological counselors and wish to use Astrology as an aid, but they need to realise that the clients they deal with are atypical.

Now traditional Astrologers can be accused of a similar offence by using terms such as 'malefic' or 'evil' in their delineations. The answer to that is that those words did not carry the connotations that they do now. Everyone's life has good and bad points and to use the terms 'good' and 'bad' is OK for an Astrologer, providing he or she does not frighten the client. Actually a lot of people consult Astrologers because they see strong possibilities of 'bad' events coming, such as trouble at work, trouble with partners, etc. To be given an anodyne reading is not what they expect or want. They want to know how long these anticipated conditions will last and whether there's steps they can take to mitigate those conditions. This involves the Astrologer making predictions and talking with their client about real world strategies for sane intelligent people.

Those clients who want to consult an Astrolger, too often find the experience unrewarding. Astrology used to be quite 'hard' in the sense of being a good scientific discipline which provided a set of tools to analyse issues. Dave clearly follows that approach but there are too many 'touchy feely' , 'my opinion is as good as anybody else's' Astrologers who basically have turned Astrology into a soft nebulous 'spray' whose function is to give comfort to clients and tell them everything is really alright, when the clients can clearly see that it is not and want some positive and practical help in dealing with their real problems.

That doesn't mean that we are unsympathetic to the client but it does mean we should take their concerns seriously and do our best to offer sound practical advice that can be tested against the client's goal. Four hundred years ago the Astrologer who offered advice which had no practical use, would soon have found himself out of a job.

I wonder if Dave could repost his list of 'everday meanings' for planets. From memory it was a series of quite brief descriptors but I think you and others would find it useful. Of course, those brief meanings would need to be contextualised as Dave says but it is a good start.

I'll then try to modify it a little to give my take on how the Outers could be used as indicating a combination of planetary influences. That might well bring Neptune and Pluto back into a practical daily context from a traditional stance. Stripped of the mythology and psycho babble, it's possible there may well be some real practical value to them.

As Dave emphasised context, you might want to perhaps put forward the synastry pairing of Venus and Pluto in terms of the relevant natal details (no need for posting a chart, the details are better) and keep the people concerned anonymous if you so wish.

[LovelyMissAries]

Hi Strangebrew,

I also have a Hades moon (Moon opp. Pluto) and have read on various sites this is sometimes connected to an "unhealthy" attachment to the mother. Perhaps the mother also had problems giving birth to the child born with a Hades moon. Something I don't like is how they describe Hades mooners as being these deep, complex, tortured people. Sure, there are people like that but I think Moon/Pluto contacts simply make the person more aware of their environment than most, and will/can add a "leathery" feel to the emotions. Nothing too scary but its certainly a fascinating topic.

[strangebrew]

Originally Posted by LovelyMissAries

Hi Strangebrew,

I also have a Hades moon (Moon opp. Pluto) and have read on various sites this is sometimes connected to an "unhealthy" attachment to the mother. Perhaps the mother also had problems giving birth to the child born with a Hades moon. Something I don't like is how they describe Hades mooners as being these deep, complex, tortured people. Sure, there are people like that but I think Moon/Pluto contacts simply make the person more aware of their environment than most, and will/can add a "leathery" feel to the emotions. Nothing too scary but its certainly a fascinating topic.

Oh that makes total sense! Its not me that has this aspect but a friend of mine that does have some stuff going on around the mother!! I so relate to what you say about the leathery emotions, yes they do come across that way...thanks!!

Thanks David and Dave too for your input appreciated!