Why love the Thoth?

[LRichard]

Originally Posted by Lotus Padma

Thank you for this enlightening information, LRichard. You must study very diligently!

Thank you. Long ago I took two years of Greek and Hebrew in college. I really wish I had been more diligent.

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

Originally Posted by Lotus Padma

Hi...I sure as heck hope I am in the right subforum to ask this question! (I am a big RWS clone fan...I never come to visit the Hallowed Halls of Thoth!) But I really, really want to know...Why do you love the Thoth? What is it about the Thoth that sets your mind/heart/soul on fire? Why is it so freaking awesome?

Its' essential rationality. It has a few errors but not nearly as many as some reworks. Crowley aimed for accuracy and I value that. Rider Waite for example? Great to goofy art, mostly bad occultism...

I'm an occultist first, an art fan second.

[wildchilde]

somehow I just saw this thread...I'm not sure if I have much to add that hasn't already been so eloquently said by closrapexa and the others.

The Thoth was one of the first decks I ever got mainly because I just thought it was what a tarot enthusiast was supposed to do. I made the mistake (lol) of reading Crowley's Book of Thoth first and was so thoroughly confused by it and off-put by his occult ways that it made it very hard for me to like the deck starting out. However, I persevered, because as someone stated, the deck stands on its own and you do not have to share Crowley's personal beliefs to connect with the deck. Also, at the time I was very into trying to understand better the Kabbalist teachings and the astrological significance of the cards.

To me, learning this deck is a life-long undertaking and I come back to it every so often with fresh eyes and further understanding of what it has to offer. I do also agree with others here that it is the absolute most honest deck you can read with. I sometimes have to ask myself before a reading if I really really want to know the bald face truth of the matter, because the Thoth does not mince about and you will easily be able to read and understand what the deck has to say to you, you just may not like the bluntness with which it is said. (at least that is how I feel about it)

You asked what I love about the Thoth, so to choose one thing above all others it would be that it is truly a deck of the Initiate. There are layers upon layers upon layers of depth and understanding within these cards. I know I likely will never go beyond scratching the tiniest bit of surface, but others are capable of going deep into the heart of it, and I like knowing that that challenge and invitation is always there for me if I choose to commit to it.

I would suggest to you two things as someone "on the fence" about Thoth and not liking the occult views of the man. 1) once you get the deck and begin your studies with it, purchase and read Lon Milo DuQuette's book, Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot , 2) purchase a second deck and trim the borders off...this makes the artwork even more unbelievably stunning than it is already.

[LRichard]

Originally Posted by Naomi Ningishzidda

Its' essential rationality. It has a few errors but not nearly as many as some reworks. Crowley aimed for accuracy and I value that. Rider Waite for example? Great to goofy art, mostly bad occultism...

I'm an occultist first, an art fan second.

Rider-Waite is mostly bad occultism? By what standard?

[Barleywine]

Originally Posted by LRichard

Rider-Waite is mostly bad occultism? By what standard?

I can see how that charge might be leveled at the minor arcana, but they did not seem to be aiming for "deep" occultism anyway, more at commentary on life's daily circumstances. Waite said pretty much the same thing in his PKT discussion of the minors. The major arcana, however, look to me like straight-forward Golden Dawn renderings (while also reflecting Waite's Christian leanings of that time). If that is what is meant by "bad occultism," I guess it's a matter of one's personal standards of excellence and experience of other systems.

Crowley and Harris, on the other hand, dodged that particular criticism by creating "augmented pips" that, if you consider them carefully, do in fact contain potent illustrative elements in the various forms and (especially) colors they used. Those images, coupled with the titles that express Crowley's personal post-GD viewpoint on each card, invite much broader, deeper and arguably more intuitive interpretations than pointedly illustrated pips since they don't (or at least not as insistently) suggest a "canned" narrative that you have to "intuit" your way through and beyond.

[LRichard]

Originally Posted by Barleywine

I can see how that charge might be leveled at the minor arcana, but they did not seem to be aiming for "deep" occultism anyway, more at commentary on life's daily circumstances. Waite said pretty much the same thing in his PKT discussion of the minors. The major arcana, however, look to me like straight-forward Golden Dawn renderings (while also reflecting Waite's Christian leanings of that time). If that is what is meant by "bad occultism," I guess it's a matter of one's personal standards of excellence and experience of other systems.

Crowley and Harris, on the other hand, dodged that particular criticism by creating "augmented pips" that, if you consider them carefully, do in fact contain potent illustrative elements in the various forms and (especially) colors they used. Those images, coupled with the titles that express Crowley's personal post-GD viewpoint on each card, invite much broader, deeper and arguably more intuitive interpretations than pointedly illustrated pips since they don't (or at least not as insistently) suggest a "canned" narrative that you have to "intuit" your way through and beyond.

I mostly agree with your assessment, Barleywine, but I think that "bad occultism" is a rather flippant comment without further explication. It doesn't exactly endear one to the author of a new esoteric Tarot which they are trying to promote. I am automatically turned off to it. Professional "occultists" and "artists" are, after all, a dime a dozen.

[Barleywine]

Originally Posted by LRichard

I mostly agree with your assessment, Barleywine, but I think that "bad occultism" is a rather flippant comment without further explication. It doesn't exactly endear one to the author of a new esoteric Tarot which they are trying to promote. I am automatically turned off to it. Professional "occultists" and "artists" are, after all, a dime a dozen.

Thanks, as always, for the lucid comments. I wasn't aware of these details. It's a sad situation when one's personal agenda must be promoted by denigrating someone else's. (I suppose it's an all-too-human failing; politicians do it all the time.) It seems to crop up here at times among the "Thoth-lovers" and "Thoth-haters," when the argument revolves around what we think of the man, irrespective of the value of his deck.

I'm reminded of the scene from Monty Python's "Life of Brian," where one faction of Brian's rabid followers takes up the sandal he discarded, while the other faction venerates the gourd. "The Sandal" and "The Gourd" thus become the iconic symbols by which they define and partition themselves, brooking no reasoned dialogue.

[elendiar]

This is one of my favourite questions!

I should mention that I am a novice student of the tarot and have been studying tarot for nearly a month now. My first deck is, as you might have guessed by now, the Thoth. I got it in one of those "serendipitous" moments... Before I set my eyes upon the Thoth I was convinced that the Rider-Waite tarot was the only deck out there - and one that I never really liked (I only learned it's name after I had bought the Thoth). But, lo and behold! there where thousands of them! Crowley's Tarot, though, hit the mark for me for a very simple reason:

I have been studying the intricate mysteries of life in various occult and non-occult areas (except Tarot!) for quite some time now and have arrived at a point in time and space where I knew I needed to find a "key" that would help me unlock a certain door (or a number of doors) that would grant a sojourner passage through the underworld of human existence. That being said, the moment when I got a chance to see the images on the cards I was shocked to realize that I had found such a wondrous key.

I instantly recognised it's raw power and value and I knew I had to and was destined to master it. I was very pleased to see familiar archetypes, symbols and images and I was very grateful for the years I have spent toiling in the deep recesses of the human psyche (much like wandering through an infinite labyrinth, searching for the "Minotaur").

I am now a very humble and methodical student of the ways of the Tarot, thanks to the wonderful art, imagery and symbolism of the Thoth.

Thank you.

Elendiar

[LRichard]

Although Thoth has the Thelemic switcheroo which associates The Star/Aquarius with ה and The Emperor/Aries with צ , it is otherwise consistent with the Golden Dawn incorporation of Tarot into the Western Esoteric Tradition. Moreover, it indicates on the cards the appropriate Hebrew letter, astrological, elemental, and decanate correlations. Other esoteric decks, such as the Rider-Waite or the Regardie-Wang Golden Dawn, are not so accomodating. Also, the artwork of Frieda Harris is sublime. Thus it is a great deck for the beginning occultist as well as the experienced Thelemite. What's not to love about it?

[Emily]

I like the Thoth, even though I don't seem to be able to use it as well as I use the Liber T, but without it the Liber T would never have been designed.

But the one thing I do and have always admired about the Thoth is that the both the creator and illustrator seemed to be very equal. Aleister Crowley and Frieda Harris gave so much input to the deck on equal terms that you think of the Thoth and you think of both of them. I've read the letters where Frieda Harris is complaining about having to repaint a card several times before it passes Crowley's idealisms of what the card should look like. And they both made a timeless classic.

Compare it with the Rider Waite - Waite could never have realised that the deck would live on in the hearts of people because of Pamela Colman Smith's artwork, who in his eyes was just the illustrator and nothing more.