Is the Tarot Pre-Christian?

[TarotCard]

Funny how no one cares to answer the very simple question on the Epiphany! Can you give a length history on it? Where does it come from? Just to make sure I do not get the "start a new post someplace else"...
1) Is the Epiphany pre-Christian?
2) Is the Epiphany in the Tarot?
13,000 words on these topics is much appreciated.

[Huck]

Funny is especially, that you cannot answer posts.

And each post that you presented had some touch of provocation. Why don't you simply present your story?

Well, and actually one can smell, that you haven't a question about epiphany and Tarot, you've just an opinion about Epiphany and Tarot.
If you're interested to tell it, then tell it ... it's a free world. And if it's not your intention to tell it, then don't tell it.

[Debra]

Hi TarotCard, welcome to AT. Huck has a point. If you'd like to discuss the main ideas of the book you're working on, you might open a thread with that focus.

[TarotCard]

Yes, the Tarot is pre-Christian. Why wouldn't it be? Would Christians invent such a thing? If it were Christian, would it not be a single card rather than a deck? Is La Papesse a Christian concept?

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally Posted by TarotCard

Yes, the Tarot is pre-Christian.

No, it isn't.

Why wouldn't it be?

Because it isn't.

Would Christians invent such a thing?

This question is meaningless. Christians are people, and people invent things. People are not walking embodiments of creedal formulae and doctrines. And in any case, there is nothing unchristian in a card game. Just ask all the Christians who play cards.

Christians do all sorts of things that are against the teachings of Jesus or some ultra-orthodox Church Fathers. Perhaps this is news to you, but, Christians are people too.

If it were Christian, would it not be a single card rather than a deck?

Another meaningless question. Actually, I don't even understand it. Can you elaborate?

Is La Papesse a Christian concept?

Yes. The Pope is a Christian. Hence a female Pope, is a Popess. Pretty simple actually. In fact, the Popess is ONLY a Christian concept. It is MEANINGLESS outside of Christianity.

Do you really think people are going to buy your $70 (US) book, all 162 pages of it, with the logic you demonstrated above?

[Teheuti]

Originally Posted by TarotCard

Funny how no one cares to answer the very simple question on the Epiphany! Can you give a length history on it? Where does it come from? Just to make sure I do not get the "start a new post someplace else"...
1) Is the Epiphany pre-Christian?
2) Is the Epiphany in the Tarot?
13,000 words on these topics is much appreciated.

Sorry - but I have no intention of writing 13,000 words on this topic - however I will answer the question to the best of my ability.

Epiphany is a word taken from a Greek word meaning "revelation". In general, modern terminology it represents 1) a sudden insight or revelation, and 2) is used by the Catholic Church as a title commemorating, on January 6th, the revelation of the coming of Christ to the Magi. Symbolically, the date is concurrent with the returning of the light after the longest night of the year (Winter Solstice).

The word is related to a similar concept that is sometimes called a theophany, which represents the manifestation of divinity to humans -- a standard part of a certain level of initiation in most of the mystery religions, indeed in many religions both pre- and post-Christian.

I do not know what pre-Christians religions used the specific term "Epiphany" for their practices or commemorations - since the word is not trademarked nor would it have been always used with precisely that spelling. Likewise, a similar concept may have had a different word used in other contexts or religions.

Is the Epiphany in the Tarot?

Depends on an individual's understanding and interpretation of Tarot (since we don't know the specific intention of the person who first devised the Trumps). If you mean the appearance of the Magi, then there is one deck that hints at that. If you mean a manifestation of deity or divinity then some would say that the World card depicts that, however the Star as Venus, Astarte or Isis is a possibility. I'm sure people could come up with other options.

What is the Popess doing in the Tarot?

If you look up Popess/Papess on this site you'll find dozens of historical images showing that similar iconography has long been used to represent any number of ideas/persons from the Flaminica Dialis of Rome, to the virtue Faith, to the Holy Mother Church herself, to Saint Clare (founder of the Poor Clares) or Maifreda Visconti, and even to the infamous "Pope Joan." The list could go on. You might be surprised by the myriad options that people have uncovered through their iconographic research. Cybele is another option, although most of her iconography includes parts that fit more with the Chariot and/or Strength (which goes along with Attis being hung from a tree = Hanged Man, roughly speaking).

[closrapexa]

Chiming in, I agree Tarot is not pre-Christian, although I believe many of the ideas presented in it are archetypal influences handed down through the centuries. I've quoted Joseph Campbell in other posts, but he posits a theory that many, if not most, of the world's stories stem from the same root "Hero's Journey" in which, roughly speaking, the hero is presented with a problem, receives so-called magic talismans, enchanted swords and knowledge to fulfill his mission, the purity of his intentions is tested and in the end he succeeds in slaying the dragon and returns with a boon to his community. I agree with this, as the same sort of mold can be found in literature to this day. The Dying God is one such example which has been repeated endlessly (The Catcher in the Rye could be seen as a parable about Jesus/Osiris, but so could Alice in Wonderland, as well as Noah's Ark. Joseph could actually be a Jesus-prototype as the similarities are striking). One doesn't even have to plan a work to "fit" the structure for it to happen. La Papess, Isis, Mary, Ruth... they are in many ways the same person. Even concepts such as doomed lovers weren't invented by Shakespeare, he just did it better.

However, although this is, hypothetically, apparent even in modern storytelling and even in the accepted (although it did go through many permutations) structure of the Tarot deck, it still does not show evidence of antiquity. Transformers follows the same structure, although I hope no one would suggest that is pre-Christian.

[Tarot Orat]

Without getting into the main argument here....the assumption that something created after the time of Christ must be Christian, or created by Christians, is a big ol' post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy that fails to take into account the many other religions in the world, some of which are post-Christian themselves, not to mention the atheists and agnostics.

ETA: That was directed at TarotCard's posts on this page of the thread, not other posters on previous pages of the thread. And speaking of whom, 13,000 words is about 50 pages. I am not sure anyone would appreciate that in a forum post...

[LRichard]

Even Christianity is pre-Christian.