Thoth vs. Liber T

[LRichard]

Originally Posted by a_gnostic

Aha! I'm using Liber θ: Tarot Symbolism & Divination. It's a bit more extensive but seems to include less pomposity.

ETA: which, by the way, is interesting, in that this may indicate that The Hermetic Tarot gets its titles from Book T, whereas Thoth and Rosetta may be from Book θ.

In Book T, the T is for Tarot (Golden Dawn version).

In Liber Θ, the Θ is probably for ΘΩΘ [Thoth] (with possibly a deliberately ambiguous reference to ΘΕΛΗΜΑ [Thelema]).

One way to tell which is which is to note whether The Star is associated with Tzaddi (Golden Dawn) or Heh (Thelema).

The Hermetic is definitely Golden Dawn; the Rosetta is the Thelemic variant.

ETA. For me there is an uneasy aspect to Thelema as it pertains to the individual. I dare not go there just yet. Some day I may be ushered therein, whether I will or no. For now, I am terrified by the idea of the ultimate sacrifice of the ego ("self-will") to the demands of the Higher Self, HGA, God, or whatever. Call me chickenshit. I am not ready for the Abyss. I have acrophobia.

[closrapexa]

I think the same can be said of any faith, actually. Islam means "surrender," the sacrifice of Isaac is another example while one can only be released from the Original Sin only by loving Jesus completely. At the end of the day, any religion starts off with the premise that the individual is inherently flawed unless they carry out a certain release of the ego.

I guess I am a rogue of any faith (I wouldn't join any club that would accept me!) but that's just fine for me. I take what seems right and discard what doesn't. I accept the fact that I am merely an ape that only by chance does not live on trees, and I am really fine with that.

[LRichard]

Thank you, closrapexa. It is good to have the companionship of a kindred soul in the same boat. (I also love Groucho Marx.)

[Always Wondering]

Originally Posted by LRichard

ETA. For me there is an uneasy aspect to Thelema as it pertains to the individual. I dare not go there just yet. Some day I may be ushered therein, whether I will or no. For now, I am terrified by the idea of the ultimate sacrifice of the ego ("self-will") to the demands of the Higher Self, HGA, God, or whatever. Call me chickenshit. I am not ready for the Abyss. I have acrophobia.

I think it is much rarer than we imagine. In all my reading there is only one person alive today who claims this, that I believe.

I think any ego is scared Sh!tless. Least I tell myself that sometimes at night if my ego keeps me up screaming "What are you reading?" "What are you thinking?" "What are you doing?"

Damn dogs of reason.


AW

[a_gnostic]

Originally Posted by LRichard

In Book T, the T is for Tarot (Golden Dawn version).

In Liber Θ, the Θ is probably for ΘΩΘ [Thoth] (with possibly a deliberately ambiguous reference to ΘΕΛΗΜΑ [Thelema]).

One way to tell which is which is to note whether The Star is associated with Tzaddi (Golden Dawn) or Heh (Thelema).

The Hermetic is definitely Golden Dawn; the Rosetta is the Thelemic variant.

Aha! Indeed, Rosetta's LWB does indicate that The Star is associated with Heh, while the Hermetic's indicates Tzaddi! I kind of knew there was some disagreement between Crowley and Levi on these associations, but it did not occur to me that this could reliably differentiate between these traditions. Thank you!

...Call me chickenshit. I am not ready for the Abyss. I have acrophobia.

Fortunately (I suppose), I don't yet know enough about Thelema to fear it, and I'm still way down here at the base of the Tree.

Originally Posted by closrapexa

...any religion starts off with the premise that the individual is inherently flawed unless they carry out a certain release of the ego...

I am so glad that I found the Aeclectic forum. I am grateful to all of you for your responses.

[Always Wondering]

Originally Posted by closrapexa

At the end of the day, any religion starts off with the premise that the individual is inherently flawed unless they carry out a certain release of the ego.

But this is what I love about Thelema. The ego is an accepted part as well, the way I understand it anyway.

From Duty

Do not repress or restrict any true instinct of your Nature; but devote all in perfection to the sole service of your one True Will.

Contemplate your own Nature.
Consider every element thereof both separately and in relation to all the rest as to judge accurately the true purpose of the totality of your Being.

Al 1:51

Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me.

However just because it is an accepted part doesn't mean it rules the roost.


Duty

Explore the Nature and Powers of your own Being.

This includes everything which is, or can be, for you: and you must accept everything exactly as it is in itself, as one of the factors which go to make up your True Self. This True Self thus ultimately includes all things soever; its discovery is Initiation (the travelling inwards) and as its Nature is to move continually, it must be understood not as static, but as dynamic, not as a Noun but as a Verb.

AW

[LRichard]

Originally Posted by a_gnostic

Aha! Indeed, Rosetta's LWB does indicate that The Star is associated with Heh, while the Hermetic's indicates Tzaddi! I kind of knew there was some disagreement between Crowley and Levi on these associations, but it did not occur to me that this could reliably differentiate between these traditions. Thank you!.......

You're welcome. It's really good to see so much activity in the historical forums.

Levi got all of the Hebrew letter attributions wrong except for The World - Tau. However, I agree with P. F. Case that Levi was probably lying. He revealed that the trumps are correlated somehow with the Hebrew alphabet, but he certainly knew more than enough קבלה to understand that his specific attributions didn't make any sense at all. He was a very astute magician. It probably had something to do with a secrecy oath.

Fortunately (I suppose), I don't yet know enough about Thelema to fear it, and I'm still way down here at the base of the Tree.

I'm probably just a lost wanderer in the Yetzirah section of the tree, somewhere between Malkuth and Tiphareth. It is just thinking about Tiphareth and what lies beyond that scares the bejesus out of me. What are now my worst fears may be lurking in the darkness, just beyond the horizon.

[closrapexa]

Back to the topic of the post, I wonder what people actually think of the differences between the Liber T and the Thoth. I have recently gotten the Hermetic as a study deck (I am even paranoid about not shuffling it!) and I am thinking of getting the Liber T as well. While the differences in color mentioned seem slight, and could even be attributed to normal differences in mixing paints (it is very hard to exactly reproduce the exact proportions used) other things piqued my interest, and I wonder if they have meaning.

For example, the review states that the Four of Wands, Completion, has the goat of Aries at the 12 o'clock position, while the Thoth has the wands aligned differently with the bird of Venus at that position(this could be a mistake in the review, since the Thoth has an empty space there). The difference seems slight, but pronounced enough to be deliberate. I couldn't find a scan of the Liber T card, so I can only imagine what it looks like, unfortunately. The other differences mentioned seem to have a purpose, so they raise my eyebrows a little less (also, I've just woken up and haven't the energy to hunt them all down).

[LRichard]

If I had the Liber T deck, I know that it would just gather dust. To me the images are meh; they lack incisiveness. For me that is a definite turn off. They might be attractive as unintrusive wall hangings for certain room decors.

[closrapexa]

Originally Posted by LRichard

If I had the Liber T deck, I know that it would just gather dust. To me the images are meh; they lack incisiveness. For me that is a definite turn off. They might be attractive as unintrusive wall hangings for certain room decors.

The nun Wu Jincang asked the Sixth Patriach Huineng, "I have studied the Mahaparinirvana sutra for many years, yet there are many areas i do not quite understand. Please enlighten me."

The patriach responded, "I am illiterate. Please read out the characters to me and perhaps I will be able to explain the meaning."

Said the nun, "You cannot even recognize the characters. How are you able then to understand the meaning?"

"Truth has nothing to do with words. Truth can be likened to the bright moon in the sky. Words, in this case, can be likened to a finger. The finger can point to the moon’s location. However, the finger is not the moon. To look at the moon, it is necessary to gaze beyond the finger, right?"

But they are all different fingers, all pointing at different moons.