How many original copies of the 1760 TdM Conver are there in existence?

[Rusty Neon]

Originally posted by Flornoy
Bonjour à tous,

Il existe une édition du Conver, circa 1830, en couleurs imprimées, différentes de l'édition originale, dont un excellent exemplaire est conservé au musée Héraclio Fournier à Victoria-Gatez en Pays basque du sud.

Il s'est vendu récemment un exemplaire complet à 1200 €.

amitiés,
JC Flornoy

C'est vraiment intéressant. Je me demande si les couleurs de cette édition 1830 étaient les couleurs auxquelles Joseph Maxwell fait reférence dans son livre sur le Tarot de Marseille.

En passant, si cette édition etait en vente sur ebay.com, le vendeur aurait sûrement reçu bien plus que 1200 euros.

[Rusty Neon]

By the way, here are links to the part of the Camoin website that has scans of the pear-wood printing plates from 1760. Plate 1 has 15 cards, etc.

http://www.camoin.com/conver_en/moules/moules_bois.asp

[Diana]

Originally posted by Flornoy
Il existe une édition du Conver, circa 1830, en couleurs imprimées, différentes de l'édition originale, dont un excellent exemplaire est conservé au musée Héraclio Fournier à Victoria-Gatez en Pays basque du sud.

Il s'est vendu récemment un exemplaire complet à 1200 €.

Translation

There is a Conver edition, circa 1830, in printed colours, different to the original edition, and of which an excellent copy is to be found in the Héraclio Fournier Museum in Victoria-Gatez in the south of the Basque Country.

Recently a complete copy was sold for 1200 Euros.

[Cerulean]

Spanish Tarot...
http://att.tarot.com/about-tarot/library/essays/spanish

The Spanish Marseilles

...The Spanish Marseilles emerged in 1975, based on the 1736 Italian-Piedmontese Tarot of Giusep Ottone. We know that the Marseilles family of decks consisted of "esoteric Tarots" not only because of the many artistic references within them to myth and magic, but also from the telltale changes instituted upon the Lovers and the Devil Arcana in the late 1600s (see "The Continental Tarots"). However, most Marseilles Tarot decks do not have any sigils or glyphs that indicate Hebrew letters, astrology signs or other overt occult correspondences. If one were just trusting in the momentum of "tradition" in Spain, one would expect the Spanish Marseilles to have correspondences like the Catalan Taroccos...

In 1977, on the six hundredth anniversary of the appearance of playing cards in Europe, Fournier commissioned the very first Spanish Tarot, the aforementioned El Gran Tarot Esoterico, created by Marixtu de Guler and rendered by Luis Peña Longa. This is the only Tarot I have ever been able to recommend to my Jewish students, who want a Tarot that will be respected by their rabbis.

The fact that this definitive Tarot also has Minor Arcana that exactly match the essay on the Spanish Tarot written by Eudes Picard in 1908 gives us another assurance that El Gran Tarot Esoterico is not a "fad" Tarot. It would be so helpful if Picard's book, Manuel Synthetique et Pratique du Tarot were trans-lated into English with all illustrations repro-duced so we could study more about the Tarot situation in Spain at the turn of this century.

[Cerulean]

1672 Marseilles, France

A complete 78-card deck by François Chosson is the earliest extant version of the most common modern TdM design. This design is the same as the 1718 Heri deck, as well as for the famous and influential 1760 Conver deck, which followed Chosson in exact detail. Modern TdM decks by Fournier and Grimaud reflect this design. (K II:310, 312.)

http://www.geocities.com/cartedatrionfi/Frag4.html

While this post might not be about most of the recolored versions of the Converse, at least two or three are linked in this review :

http://www.wicce.com/marseilles.html

[kenji]

Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki
1672 Marseilles, France

A complete 78-card deck by François Chosson is the earliest extant version of the most common modern TdM design. This design is the same as the 1718 Heri deck, as well as for the famous and influential 1760 Conver deck, which followed Chosson in exact detail. Modern TdM decks by Fournier and Grimaud reflect this design. (K II:310, 312.)

Hello :-)
Mr. Thierry Depaulis thinks Chosson's deck was made in 18th century.
The following are some excerpts from the e-mails he sent to me.

" From the archives we know Chosson was active in the mid-18th century.
There were cardmakers in Marseilles as early as the 1630's. The date on the
Chosson tarot (strangely housed in the Blumenstein Museum at Solothurn/
Soleure, Switzerland) has been read as "1672" but this is impossible. The
general style is that of the 18th century."

"According to Joseph Billioud, "La carte à jouer : une vieille industrie
marseillaise", in 'Marseille. Revue municipale', 3rd s., No. 34, 1958, and
No. 35, 1958, the best and most recent study on cardmaking in Marseilles,
François Chosson is mentioned in the archives in 1734 (also in D'Allemagne),
1736, 1753 and 1756. Chosson may have been working later on. Perhaps
up to 1762."

(My question)
"Then what's the missing number, "1*72"...?
To see a photocopy of the two of coins (in Kaplan II),
it seems to me it is by no means 1'7'72."

His answer:
"I agree. There clearly is "1c72".
But this may be a woodcutter's error, just switching two figures, cutting
(reversed in the woodblock) 1672 for 1762...
(In all case this tarot has none of the features 17th-century French cards
present. On the contrary: it is quite comparable to all Marseilles
mid-18th-century tarots.)"

[Flornoy]

Originally posted by kenji
Hello :-)
Mr. Thierry Depaulis thinks Chosson's deck was made in 18th century.

Greetings to all

This is also my opinion. The Chausson dates from the second half of the 18th century, or perhaps even beginning 19th.

Friendly regards,
JCF

[The 78th Fool]

I paid a visit to the British Museum while I was researching for my own deck. They have an original Conver TDM and a Claude Burdel amongst other things in their playing card collection. I had to make an appointment however as the collection is not on general display. The upside was that I got to handle the cards under supervision.

Concerning the Conver - the colours were similar to the Lo Scarabeo facsimile but differed in that black, rather than dark blue ink was used for the basic printing. The backs had a repeating pattern in a similar vain to the modern Camoin edition.

The quality of print and stenciling on the Burdel was vastly inferior to the Conver.

It was quite a special experience to handle a real Conver and a real Burdel on the same day! However, I have to say that the BM staff had to be certain I had good research reasons for being granted access. Well worth it!

[Rusty Neon]

78th fool ... Thanks for sharing your experience.

Do you know what particular year of printing the Conver TdM was? (Convers were printed between 1760 and 1880, I understand.)

Was the Conver TdM that you saw at the British Museum a complete deck of 78 cards?

[The 78th Fool]

Hi Rusty,
I'm really not sure - I don't even think the museum knew to be quite honest. Their playing card collection was a private one, left to them wholesale in a will in the late 19th century. The catalogue I was given was compiled in 1910 or earlier if I remember. The info in there referred to the card manufacturer and the 1760 date on the cards. I don't remember seeing anything more specific. Believe it or not, the BM doesnt have a playing card specialist!! I think there were 2 minor cards missing and a couple of cards had been annotated.

My instinct is that it was earlier than the one seen on the Lo Scarabeo facsimile. The back design was definitely block printed too and there wasn't the signs of degradation in the printing blocks that you see on the LS edition.

Sorry I can't help more at present. However, now I'm working on the book to go with my deck, It won't do me any harm to pay another visit to the B.M. When I do I'll post a thread , maybe you can all give me some indicators of what to look for beforehand so we can establish which printing this is.

Chris. xx