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Quote:
Originally Posted by treedog View Post
Working with the cards in this way I can see the "people" (conscious and subconscious?) in Atu VI (The Lovers) seem to be the same couple in Atu XV (The Devil). In the first card they are protected/guided by AA Raphael, and in The Devil they have abandonded discrimination and fallen pray to base instincts which leads to "bondage."

Even though the belief in an actual "devil" seems to be the habit of shallower approaches to religion, the archetype is familiar, if not a bit silly.
I disagree, but I've written so much about the Devil in other threads I won't again, at least not now. Suffice it to say, there is more in the Golden Dawn interpretation of the Devil than there was in the traditional Marseilles portrayal, even though they look similar. Remember he isn't Lord of Evil, he is Lord of the Gates of Matter, and he is attributed to Ain. The Thoth Devil quite accurately and succinctly points out what that gate is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by treedog View Post
Anyone care to comment on the "Seed" in the upper lefthand corner of Death?
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=132086

The Devil and Death balance each other on the Tree, that seed may very well be the Devil (pay special attention to Rodney's post).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
I disagree, but I've written so much about the Devil in other threads I won't again...
If you're going to disagree, please take the time to tell with what you disagree. Otherwise, how can I learn?
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Huh. You've got a point there.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=193381

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=3037033

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...=194157&page=2

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=192337
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I knew you'd come through. Thanks again! And I'm glad you didn't feel the need to re-type the entire book of "closrapexa on the devil." It's all here, and in good form. My questions and concerns as well, but not nearly as articulate.

My flippant comment was worth it since it got me in to the inner room. I feel privileged to join in with you, ravenest, LRichard and the rest. I wouldn't say that the following (your words) sums it up entirely for me, but it comes close in a language that I can get:

*********************************************

In other words, the Devil is the urge to do, to create, the lifeforce, survival instincts, hunger, thirst, passion, Will. This urge is far from being only sexual, but is perhaps best illustrated as the sexual passions. What the apple failed to give Adam and Eve was discipline, and although together they have the creative powers of gods, the way they acquired them failed to give them the discipline to use them. Creation itself is very disciplined, and every element is in its proper place and measure (this goes to the negative aspects of the Devil).

The Devil is a good thing. Although undisciplined and needs to be kept in check, without him life would be bland and tasteless and indeed, wouldn't be possible. The Golden dawn title for this card is "Lord of the Gates of Matter," as in the thing that incarnates us into our earthly bodies. I guess it is a matter of opinion whether one thinks that is a bad thing. One theory suggests the Fall wasn't really a fall, but a necessary division of the primal potentiality in order to experience all that can be experienced. Waite may have said what you quoted, LRichard, but in adhering to the traditional guilt-burdening image of the Marseilles, he may not have presented an image he actually believed in.

Going back to the Tree of Life, I see it as no coincidence that the Devil parallels the Magician, as both are uncontrolled creative forces on different levels. In addition, the Devil is balanced by Death, two sides of the coin of being alive. The Devil is attributed to Ain (Eye), significant both because Adam and Eve are said to have opened their eyes after eating the fruit and became ashamed (discovered the sexual impulse and fear of the creative power); and also because Ain has the secondary meaning of the opening of the urethra, all of humanity's Gate of Matter.

******************************************
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treedog View Post
Quoted from closrapexa: ....What the apple failed to give Adam and Eve was discipline, and although together they have the creative powers of gods, the way they acquired them failed to give them the discipline to use them....
This morning The Lovers came up in a general reading (more of a study/meditation) and it got really simple: I need both of the trees on that RWS card. Urge (as a word for now), and Method (or discipline).

I never thought I'd hear myself say, I need the Devil. Being on the path of the Great Work allows everything to be disolved and re-integrated. Like The Hanged Man, my world is flipping upside down.
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Nice earthy feel to the cards, good job! Thanks for posting.
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