Why does the suit of swords have the most negative meanings?

Thirteen

holdorfold said:
Compared to the other suits, the suit of swords by far has the most negative cards. Why is this?
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The short answer, related to the spades answer there, is that there was a built in prejudice towards them that has lingered and outlasted it's usefulness. It's not a surprising bias if you consider that when the cards first appeared, those who used swords weren't very nice people. Tales of King Arthur aside, the only ones using swords were noblemen in power over everyone else—or trying to get into power over everyone else. Swords were used hurt, kill, subjugate, threaten, and behead. And not much else. So seeing swords in your future usually meant bad things. A sword battle was bloody and ugly if you had a sword. If you didn't, you were gonna die.

So, swords had this "death" reputation rather like spades—and besides, it's an easier read if one suit is the "bad luck" suit. When it turns up, you know bad things are coming. If it doesn't, then all might be good. Anyway, Waite went along with this when he created his deck, and as the vast majority of tarot decks are clones of Waite, the negative towards swords continued, even if it made no sense.

Fortunately, many have decried this bias (Crowley most notably, he loved swords) and created more fairness in viewing the sword suit, less bias, and more equality in general. You just have to get the right decks and books.
 

good_lilith

Swords

I think it is because they represent our mind and I believe there it is where all struggles and animosity originate in a person's life. For me, they represent the caotic in our lives derived by our thoughts, which at the end of the day manifest everything on this earth (pentacles). I think they are the most teaching suit of cards, although most of those teachings aren't pretty.
 

ravenest

Swords and thoughts

yes , Crowley and G.D. 'liked' swords, as I said earlier, because of the Mercurius aspect but also, see the Ace of Swords - its the sword of the magician, a very essential magical weapon.

Its true what Thirteen says above - on that level . I have been practicing fencing for years (japanese style) and a Japanese guy came here once, I was hopeful of a training partner, but he had no experience and even seemed nervous of the question. I asked him if he wanted to learn any and he was no no no. He didnt even want to take up the sword or handle it, it was like I was trying to hand him something that he was scared off .

Since Waite was in the GD, as it is with many other cases, he didnt seem to translate that into his deck, but stuck with some old traditional stuff or personal takes, like he did in a few other areas.

Liber Librae ( G.D. and Crowley) on thoughts;

16. To obtain Magical Power, learn to control thought; admit only those ideas that are in harmony with the end desired, and not every stray and contradictory Idea that presents itself.

17. Fixed thought is a means to an end. Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. The material act is but the outward expression of thy thought, and therefore hath it been said that "the thought of foolishness is sin." Thought is the commencement of action, and if a chance thought can produce much effect, what cannot fixed thought do?
 

Thirteen

ravenest said:
yes , Crowley and G.D. 'liked' swords, as I said earlier, because of the Mercurius aspect but also, see the Ace of Swords - its the sword of the magician, a very essential magical weapon.
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Ah, yes! Seeing it that way makes a big difference! Far less a threat than a tool and a defense :D
I have been practicing fencing for years (japanese style) and a Japanese guy came here once, I was hopeful of a training partner, but he had no experience and even seemed nervous of the question. I asked him if he wanted to learn any and he was no no no. He didnt even want to take up the sword or handle it, it was like I was trying to hand him something that he was scared off .
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Heh. We in the West have this very noble image of Samurai, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that in Japan they were better known for abusing the peasantry? (they had the right to cut off the heads of any peasant, any time for any reason, yes?)--and if you were not a Samurai, you did not *dare* touch a sword. I'm not surprised that some of that may still linger in modern Japan, the scary, powerful, dangerous aura of a sword, which may not be handled by any but a select few.

We ended up with a different, more romantic view of swords in the West thanks to cannons and guns turning them into more of an art (fencing) and symbol. I remember reading that John Adams, when presented to the king of France, wore not only a full powdered wig but also a sword. Not because he knew how to use one, but because it was considered an necessary accouterment for an ambassador being presented to royalty. And then there are all those romantic statues of women standing for Justice and Liberty waving swords, not to mention current fantasy stories and novels, which tend to give us a much different view of the sword than when it was used as an actual weapon.

Japanese fencing sounds really interesting, by the way.
 

Zephyros

I also find that because Swords deal with the mind they can be really over dramatic, whatever the issue at hand. Keeping with the suits' progression with the Ace as the pure idea and the Ten the element in its most diluted form, the Ten of Swords, despite its reputation as the worst card isn't actually better or worse than any other card. It simply describes a state of being in which the mind, or thought, is in its most scattered form, to the point where the mind itself is a burden. Well, that's how it can be summed up, anyway.

That in itself isn't bad. I actually came across it not long ago as a hearty recommendation to go to sleep. I was shuffling half asleep during a movie, and wasn't paying attention to either deck or movie. The Ten of Swords certainly was accurate in describing my mind just then.

Point is, the fact that something exists in a situation doesn't necessarily mean it exists in the over the top, melodramatic way it is depicted on the card. Same thing with any of the well known "bad" cards. That the Five of Pentacles depicts poverty is obvious, but that's another way of saying lack of things you want or need. It could be destitution but it can also be waiting for your new Jaguar to be delivered or simply being hungry waiting for Chinese take-out.

This is also one of the reasons why I now prefer the more abstract pips decks, because they are more flexible in how they are interpreted.
 

ravenest

Thirteen said:
Ah, yes! Seeing it that way makes a big difference! Far less a threat than a tool and a defense :D

Heh. We in the West have this very noble image of Samurai, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that in Japan they were better known for abusing the peasantry? (they had the right to cut off the heads of any peasant, any time for any reason, yes?)--and if you were not a Samurai, you did not *dare* touch a sword. I'm not surprised that some of that may still linger in modern Japan, the scary, powerful, dangerous aura of a sword, which may not be handled by any but a select few.
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Even showing someone your sword could scare them ... even having it in your belt (when entering someone s house - or I should say, their garden) the sword ( in its saya) should be removed from the belt and carried in the right hand (so it cant be drawn quickly ... no one would draw with the left hand.)
Thirteen said:
We ended up with a different, more romantic view of swords in the West thanks to cannons and guns turning them into more of an art (fencing) and symbol. I remember reading that John Adams, when presented to the king of France, wore not only a full powdered wig but also a sword. Not because he knew how to use one, but because it was considered an necessary accouterment for an ambassador being presented to royalty. And then there are all those romantic statues of women standing for Justice and Liberty waving swords, not to mention current fantasy stories and novels, which tend to give us a much different view of the sword than when it was used as an actual weapon.

Japanese fencing sounds really interesting, by the way.
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I've done both sorts :)

http://101.0.76.160/~shinsend/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Bokken1.jpg

&

http://www.zenjapaneselandscape.com/p7lsm_img_5/fullsize/japanese_fence11woodwork_fs.jpg

having several species of bamboo groves helps.

and also weapons for Wands,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76GBFellcq8

The disc is of course a shied and a cup is ....... ?
 

Richard

ravenest said:
......Since Waite was in the GD, as it is with many other cases, he didnt seem to translate that into his deck, but stuck with some old traditional stuff or personal takes, like he did in a few other areas......
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Maybe it is time to review the GD titles for the sword pips:

2/S Peace Restored
3/S Sorrow
4/S Rest from Strife
5/S Defeat
6/S Earned Success
7/S Unstable Effort
8/S Shortened Force
9/S Despair and Cruelty
10/S Ruin

This doesn't seem very positive to me. Also, it seems to match the Waite images fairly well. Crowley put a more positive spin on the Swords, but the GD didn't.
 
as a Queen of Swords type - how do you embrace the Queen of Cups Empress