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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
I think, that Mme Finet is not of importance ... one finds not much to her.
True, that one cannot find much on her. My point was that the one at the BM, whose author/publisher is unidentified, seems similar to that described in WPC as being by Mme. Finet. There is the relationship to the c.1790 at the BnF, plus there is the misspelling - Nouvel Eteila, and the spelling as 'Eteila' on the cards at the BM.

Quote:
He had cooperating engravers, and likely also very much persons, who helped in the distribution of his productions. Likely also Madame Finet. We cannot determine, if he himself engraved the deck, but at least he should have had a state as producer or commissioner.
I am not sure about what relationship there is between the Finet and the Grasset Saint-Sauveur, if any. But I think the Finet is a different version to that of the coq-heron et chez Deroy.

The Finet mentions 36 cards (as are those at the BM, 32 picquet and 4 'Eteila', as in Nouvel 'Eteila').

The rue coq-heron, et chez Deroy, does not mention the number of cards, only that there are 42 tableaux, some double, joined with ordinary cards.

The only address I have found re: Finet is the same as that of the 'Robert' (both of which are called: Le Petit Oracle Des Dames. Nouvel Eteila, ou le Petit necromancien; and both being advertised as being available from the same address.)

The 36 card Eteila deck at the BM, which have several elements in common with the 1791 BnF, are all single figure.

The Nouvelle Eteila, ou le petit Nécromancien, Le petit oracle des dames by Finet from the Rothschild collection is described as a:

Divinatory card game with standard piquet pack and four extra cards derived
from the Tarot of Etteilla (Jean-Baptiste Alliette).


Same as that at the BM.

The sheet is divided into 36 rectangles arranged in rows with smaller reserves for the suits on the
right-hand side. The image is etched and hand-coloured, the text is engraved.

The pack here is a standard French piquet pack of 32 cards Ace, King, Queen, Jack, 10, 9, 8, 7, of the usual four French suits but with four extra Ettellia cards.


Again, same as the BM, excepting the BM is uncoloured, and the cataloguer makes no mention of the name Etteilla being misspelt, but have spelt it wrong themselves, but in a different manner. (I found the deck at the BM through searching its database with 'Eteila', it didn't come up searching with 'Etteilla'.)

Depaulis notes that the game draws on another, earlier and somewhat mysterious set of cards, which he called “Jeu politico-divinatoire” (n° 99 in the 1989 “Les cartes de la Révolution” catalogue), which is in the BnF and bears the APR (“Avec Privilège du Roi”) imprint so it must date from around 1790.

Again, same as that at the BM. And clearly different to that of the coq-heron et chez Deroy, with its 42 tableaux, some double-sided.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
Another text ...

... is from "Nivose an. 7" and should be from Dec/Jan 1798/1799.
That would be perhaps the inspiration for this:

Quote:
Jeu divinatoire géographique : France, c. 1820, eau-forte et
pointillé, couleurs au pinceau, 52/52 cartes, 81 x 54 mm, ens.
fr. ; dos réseau d’étoiles bleues ; ch. carte offre un personnage
folklorique (identifi é par la lég. du bas), sauf les as, illustrés
d’allégories ; des sentences divinatoires et des chiffres plus ou
moins « cabalistiques » accompagnent les cartes, ainsi qu’une
carte normale miniature au portrait français ; les fi g. folkloriques
s’inspirent des planches des Tableaux des principaux peuples de
l’Europe, de l’Asie, de l’Afrique, de l’Amérique…, de jacques grassetst-
sauveur (Paris, an VI) ou d’un jeu éducatif intermédiaire. un
ex. auj au MFCj (Depaulis 1989, n° 103), n’a que 32 cartes mais
possède en plus une carte « blanche » « Consultation d’etteilla ».
Il est à peu près certain que le célèbre cartonomancien, mort
en 1791, n’est pour rien dans ce curieux jeu ethnographique
(cp. Keller 1981, Fra 192 et 193, tous deux en 32 c.). Quelques
rousseurs ici et là, mais très bon état général.
It came in both a 52 card and a 32 card version. There is a copy of the 32 card version at the Met.

("Geographic divination game: France, c. 1820 etching and dotted, color brush, 52/52 cards, 81 x 54 mm, ens. fr. ; back has a network of blue stars; c. a character card offers Folk figures (identified by the legend at bottom), except those that are illustrated allegories; with divinatory sentences and numbers more or less "cabalistic" accompanying the cards, and a miniature insert of standard french suits; figures of folk are inspired by the paintings of the main plates of peoples Europe, Asia, Africa, America ... by Jacques grassetst-savior (Paris, Year VI) or an intermediary educational game.

"There is another version (MFCj-Depaulis 1989 No. 103), but which only has 32 cards and additionally a "white" card with "Etteilla Consultation".

It is almost certain that the famous cartonomancien, death in 1791, has nothing to do with this curious ethnographic game (cp. Keller 1981 Fra 192 and 193, both made of 32 v.). A few foxing here and there, but very good condition.)

The above description is from a catalogue for an auction of the collection of Claude Giuard, November 2011. I just happened to be discussing it in relation to a posting by Mary Greer & Robert Place a few weeks ago in another group. The 'cabalistic numbers' referred too I think are more likely lottery numbers.

Here is the 32 card set at the Met:

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/...%89trangers%27

The 'Etteilla' card that came with the 32 pack is either not included or not on view with the 32 card pack at the Met.

Quote:
Actually I don't know, what this book "Le petit Escamoteur" contains (29 or 40 copperplate engravings + text, but what?) ... I don't get a clear description or a text. Why were DDD interested in the text? Sure, "Escamoteur" was a name for the Magician in the Epinal Tarot.
There are loads of books by different publishers by the same name, for example Bloquel -Catiaux published one, often with an Escamoteur on the cover, i.e., a bateleur, player of cups and balls -- all of them I've seen are about how to perform tricks (as in magic tricks, card tricks, cup & balls, etc.,)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
Here is the 32 card set at the Met:

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/...%89trangers%27

The 'Etteilla' card that came with the 32 pack is either not included or not on view with the 32 card pack at the Met.
Here are two from the 52 card deck (that were included in the above mentioned catalogue)



Compare l'amour with that from the 33 card deck at the Met:





Very similar, bar contrast, colouring and the different lottery numbers.

The l'isle de Paques however is 8 spades, not the 7 spades:



Here is the 7 spades:

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post

There is also another 1802 listing in:

JOURNAL TYPOGRAPHIQUE BIBLIOGRAPHIQUE AVIS
Le Bureau du Journal Bibliographique
Du 24 Messidor an 10

p.334

Le Petit Oracle des dames, ou Récréation des curieux. Prix 3 fr. Paris, Gueffier, libraire, boulevard Cérutti.
Found an earlier advertisement, 13th April 1801 (Journal des débats et des décrets -- Du 23 Germinal An 9) :



The Gueffier Oracle des Dames 3ff. And also the Jeu d'Etteilla 1fr.80c.

So we have as early as April 1801, and clearly dated --

there is another one, a Gueffier catalogue, from the Cerutti address, that is at the end of a book published by Gueffier which the BnF dates to 1784 -- surely too early??? (There is no date on the Book itself.)

Ah - there is another edition 1802 - the BnF surely must be the second edition, though they have listed it as 1784.
Aaba; ou, Le triomphe de l'innocence, suivi de: La Vallée de Tempe. Paris: Gueffier jeune
[1784]. 2nd éd., Paris: Vve. Gueffier, 1802 (though the BnF is definitely Gueffier jeune, not Vve. Gueffier).
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Another confirmation for the address St.Sauveur-Grasset from one of his productions ...



The year of the production is given with 1798 (by books.google.com, not in the text).

There is a second place of distribution for the product, and that's Bordeaux: This had also appeared in the distribution (announcements) of the Petit Oracle des Dames. The author seems to have a second (or first ?) address there.

Source:
Tableaux des principaux peuples de l'Europe, de l'Asie, de l'Afrique, de l'Amérique, et les découvertes des capitaines Cook, La Pérouse, etc
Jacques Grasset-Saint-Sauveur
chez l'auteur, 1798
https://books.google.de/books?id=t4V...gbs_navlinks_s
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hi Stephen,

I think, I start to understand you.

But ...



I interpret this info (from 1898, son rather late) as a summary to advertisements, that an author collected at a much later time. He talks of 3 different objects:

1. Petit Oracles des Dames (I guess, as we know it, with 42 cards)
2. Petit Necromancien
3. Tarot with 36 cartes "non decoupee" (I interpret "non decoupee" as 36 cards as a sheet, not cut)

This 36-cards-Tarot is not called "Petit Oracles des Dames" in this summary. If it is identified as the pack in the British Museum ...




... one naturally can see similarities between Petit Oracle des Dames and this socalled Tarot pack (though it's rather different from a Tarot pack)

What maybe the hidden truth between these infos? Mme Finet offered the deck of Grasset-St.Sauveur, so she knew him by business relations. Her so-called Tarot pack naturally had been ALSO from Grasset-St.Sauveur, who might have felt it a good idea to have also a more simpler (and likely cheaper) version than the 42 cards / 72 pictures edition.
Similar to the French Minchiate, which also was produced with different numbers by the same Poilly family.

Now you have offered some new info by Philippa Plock ...

Quote:
Nouvelle Eteila, ou le petit Nécromancien, Le petit oracle des dames
Finet (French, active Circa 1805?)

Divinatory card game with standard piquet pack and four extra cards derived
from the Tarot of Etteilla (Jean-Baptiste Alliette). The sheet is divided into
36 rectangles arranged in rows with smaller reserves for the suits on the
right-hand side. At lower right, there is a blank reserve for the shop name to
be written in. The image is etched and hand-coloured, the text is engraved.

Etteilla was the pseudonym of Jean-Baptiste Alliette (1738 – 1791), a French
occultist who was the first to popularise tarot divination to a wide audience.
This is a sheet of fortune telling cards using some of the imagery devised by
Etteilla. The pack here is a standard French piquet pack of 32 cards Ace,
King, Queen, Jack, 10, 9, 8, 7, of the usual four French suits but with four
extra Ettellia cards. Decker, Depaulis and Dummett (1996) refer to a 36 card
pack produced by Madame Finet in about 1800 under the title “le Petit
Oracle des Dames”, which is the same game. Depaulis (correspondence 18
June 2009) now dates the game slightly later, circa 1810, and notes that there
are suit signs. The game was included in the exhibition of 1989 “Les cartes
de la Révolution”, with the earlier date. Depaulis notes that the game draws
on another, earlier and somewhat mysterious set of cards, which he called
“Jeu politico-divinatoire” (n° 99 in the 1989 “Les cartes de la Révolution”
catalogue), which is in the BnF and bears the APR (“Avec Privilège du Roi”)
imprint so it must date from around 1790. A very similar game was produced
circa 1810 by Robert, see Decker, Depaulis and Dummett (1996). There are
copies of Mme Finet’s sheet in the Cary collection of playing cards (Yale
University Library). They are catalogued as FRA 194 and FRA sheet 176. I
am grateful to Thierry Depaulis for this information.

Ronald Decker,Thierry Depaulis and Michael Dummett,’’A Wicked
Pack of Cards: The Origins of the Occult Tarot’’, New York, 1996; p. 143;
discusses another copy of the game.

Thierry Depaulis, ‘‘Les cartes de la Révolution: cartes à jouer et
propagande’’, Issy-les-Moulineaux, 1989; n°100; discusses another copy of
the game.

William B. Keller, ‘‘A catalogue of the Cary collection of playing cards in
the Yale University Library’’, New Haven, 1981; discusses another copy of
the game.

Phillippa Plock

The Rothschild Collection
Waddesdon Manor – Printed Board Games Collection, August 2009
I take the sentence ...
"Decker, Depaulis and Dummett (1996) refer to a 36 card
pack produced by Madame Finet in about 1800 under the title “le Petit
Oracle des Dames”, which is the same game."

DDD formulates in relation to the POdD "... but of which an earlier version by Mme Finet, with the same title but only 36 cards, had been issued in about 1800" (p. 143).

But I see no evidence, that Finet produced something and no evidence, that this was called POdD.
There's a footnote 3, which I can't follow completely ... 4 sources. I guess, that they are more about POdD than about Mme Finet. But perhaps there's the background, that Finet was producer and made a deck called POdF with 36 cards, though I doubt it.

However ... another sentence:
"Depaulis (correspondence 18 June 2009) now dates the game slightly later, circa 1810, and notes that there are suit signs."
I assume it is talked from the 36 cards in British Museum (?). If it is from 1810, it is outside of our discussion. But maybe it was reprint of the earlier Finet deck.

Thanks for this link ...
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/...27&rpp=60&pg=1

I knew only some cards of them. Yes, the paintings of Grasset-St.Sauveur were occasionally used as playing card motifs. With gives strength to the idea, that he also made the POdD and perhaps also the BM deck.

Earlier I'd found lots of advertisements to POdD, but the advertisement which led to Grasset-St.Sauveur was the oldest.

**********

Added:

DDD in the register notes Mme Finet as a "printseller", not as a playing card producer.
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Observing Justice:



Petit Oracle, belonging to Grasset-St.Sauveur
Justice sitting on throne

*********



BM deck, Justice in the first row, 4th card
hypothetically given to Mme Finet (alternative also to Grasset St.Sauveur)
Justice sitting in cloud

************



Deck of 1820, given to Grasset-St.Sauveur
Justice sitting in cloud

***********



Justice in Etteilla related decks
Justice sitting on throne

***********



Justice in divination deck c. 1790
standing with open eyes

***********


http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFene...&M=chemindefer

Justice in Minchiate Francesi
standing with open eyes

**************

I stands, that Grasset-St.Sauveur used the sitting-on-a-throne-motif and also the sitting-in-the-cloud-motif. So it seems plausible, that he made also the BM-deck (sitting-in-the-cloud-motif).

********
********

Observation "Lucine"

The divination deck c. 1790 used the strange figure "Lucine"



The Petit Oracle later also uses this figure (variated):



Somehow it seems to present "fertility", also "increase of population".

In the divination deck 52 Lucine looks paired with 51 ...



.... which seems to present a medical physician. He also causes "increase of population".
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Available reprint of the 1857 german edition


Not sure if this edition of the german book has been already mentioned.
A german book with the title:
"Das Etteila-Tarot. Das ursprüngliche Buch Thot. Theoretischer und praktischer Unterricht über das Buch Thot" is available, easy to find and not pricey.
There are even several editions of this book available.
One by Fourier(1990):
ASIN: B00GTXMVZE
and one by Bohmeier (2010):
ISBN-10: 3890946291
ISBN-13: 978-3890946290

I just received a copy of the Fourier edition, Helmut Werner is mentioned as the editor of the book.
The book contains about 55 pages of text, a bibliographic notice and 78 b&w pictures of the Etteila deck.
The text ist divided in 4 lessons (Unterricht).

In the bibliographic notice the editor (Helmut Werner) mentions a book called "Theoretischer und praktischer Unterricht über das Buch Thot" edited in 1857 by J. Scheible in Stuttgart as vol. 14 from an esoteric book serie.
Helmut Werner also writes that in the edition from 1857 by Scheible all sources from the original have been omitted so that this could have lead to think the book would be an original creation.
He mentions also that Scheible seems to have been active under the pseudonym Peter Hammel, Köln for other publications.

According to the research of Helmut Werner the book from 1857 is a translation of Etteilas book "Cours de livre de Thot (Cours théorique et pratique du Livre de Thot) 1791, that also appeared in another edition as "Lecons théoriques et pratiques du Livre de Thot" 1787.
Helmut Werner does not expressly says that his edition of the book is a reprint of the 1857 edition, but I assume one can say it is.
At least I can recognize in this german translation the typical heavy and emphatic style of Etteila.

The pictures of the cards look exactly like the cards seen in the link provided by kwaw in post #327 of this thread:
http://www.karelkrenek.com/entry_ima...=16347&lang=en
The 78 pictures in the book are 152 mm x 83 mm.
They are quite good but a little bit "too black", meaning that the resolution is not gray scale but b&w so that some details are possibly missing.

Considering that this book is quite easy to find and does not cost a lot, it can be a nice addition to an historical collection.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coredil View Post

The pictures of the cards look exactly like the cards seen in the link provided by kwaw in post #327 of this thread:
http://www.karelkrenek.com/entry_ima...=16347&lang=en
The 78 pictures in the book are 152 mm x 83 mm.
They are quite good but a little bit "too black", meaning that the resolution is not gray scale but b&w so that some details are possibly missing.

Considering that this book is quite easy to find and does not cost a lot, it can be a nice addition to an historical collection.
Thanks Coredil I had seen there was a modern edition, and was wondering if the illustrations matched those of the 1857.

Re: the Finet Nouvel Eteila, ou Petit necromancien. Oracle des Dames. I have messaged Thiery Depaulis, Phillipa Plock & Waddeson Manor enquiring whether it bears any relation to the BM set, which I suspect it does. Hopefully I will receive an answer to confirm whether it does or does'nt.

Re: Lucine - it is a name meaning 'moon' in one language I can't recall at the moment, but is generally taken to mean "she who brings children into the light" (Latin: lux, lucis, "light"). It was a name associated with Juno/Hera, invoked esp. in relation to weddings and childbirth.

In Greek mythology, Eileithyia (Greek Εἰλείθυια / Eileíthuia) -- the goddess of childbirth, corresponds to Lucine in Roman mythology, a child of Juno and Jupiter. The name was also used as an epiteth of Juno.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
Re: the Finet Nouvel Eteila, ou Petit necromancien. Oracle des Dames. I have messaged Thiery Depaulis, Phillipa Plock & Waddeson Manor enquiring whether it bears any relation to the BM set, which I suspect it does. Hopefully I will receive an answer to confirm whether it does or does'nt.
I have had a response from Phillipa Plock & Waddeson Manor and can confirm that the BM 'Eteila' is another copy of the "Petit Eteila" by Finet from the Rothschild collection, as catalogued by Philippa Plock, and whose catalogue entry I quoted in previous post.

Happy Bunny

Kwaw
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