Death's Scythe and the Tarot

[le pendu]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

I forgot to add jmd- that the Dick Fund sheet shows a curved shaft as well- that is why I question the dating- it is definitley not straight like other renditions of a scythe. Kwaw also mentioned something about the Devil on the Dick Fund sheet- Krampas??? a german influence???~Rosanne

We also discuss this a bit here:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=40900

[kwaw]

On p.40/41 of 'Astrology' [Starfire 2002] edited by Kim Farnell there is a reproduction of what is described as being from a '13th century calendar'.

Opposite/under each month July to December are the astrological signs. The figures are medieval in look each represented within a gothic style arch.

In 'Augustus' opposite 'Sol in Vugine' [Virgo] is the figure of a man with sickle cutting crops.

In 'Iuluis' [July] opposite 'Sol in Leone' [Leo] is the figure of a man with scythe mowing grass. The figure appears to be holding two central handles of a curved scythe.

Unfortunately beside the caption to it being from a '13th century calendar' there is no further reference to follow up on; but if accurate does seem to show a [very] early example of a 'curved' scythe with two 'central-handles'.

Kwaw

[Rosanne]

Thank you Kwaw for seeing this Calendar. Astrological Almanacs are a rich source of images from Medieval and Reinassance times. It is a pity the source was not named. I must confess to being more particular than I have ever been to write down all the infomation that I can find, whereas before I was quite casual. It is for here, that I have been trying to learn to do this, so I can back up arguments- like as I have tried to do with this wretched Scythe. Can you scan the image? The 13th Century seems a little early for what you describe- I have scanned a Almanac page from a woodcut in 1504 from Paris and an illumination from a miniature in a manuscript called De Sphaera, held in Italy.(15th Century) Strange, absorbing bleedin' scythes. I still have nothing to report with images from 1600 on- well nothing to scan that is. ~Rosanne

[kwaw]

Well I thought it was early. I did an online google image search [search terms: medieval calendar] and here is another 12th century signs of the zodiac with labours of the months which also shows use of the scythe with leo, and sickle with virgo. It is too small to tell clearly but the scythe appears as if he could be holding two handles, the image is quite similar to the one I reference in the post above [I will provide a scan as soon as I time].

http://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/library/spe...s/calender.htm

Full details of the manuscript in which the calendar appears here:
http://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/library/spe...edman/B_20.htm

The scythes [several appear] in this manuscript appear to show two handles:
http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/5/5.7/ms1581.jpg

Full details of the manuscript c.1425 can be found here [MS1581, about halfway down the page]:
http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/5/5.7/index.html#1581

On the same page there are links to other calendars that are worth following too. For example right hand figure, definitely two handled [13th century French]:

http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/5/5.7/ms1371.jpg

Kwaw

[Rosanne]

Thanks Kwaw- there goes that theory out the window! Those are definitely two handle scythes. Not curved, but two handles nonetheless. Poo Bah!
I do not think them fruit tree lopers either. Ah well- it was fun for a while. I have ordered that scythe book from the library anyway. One of the outcomes of this is that I can scan those Kaplan pages and take out the smudging so I can perhaps see the images more clearly. Perhaps my time might be better employed learning a few computer tricks instead of chasing shadows. Thanks also for the search criteria- which I also get fazed about. ~Rosanne

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

Thanks Kwaw- there goes that theory out the window! Those are definitely two handle scythes. Not curved, but two handles nonetheless. ~Rosanne

Well I have been researching this for some time now all over the place and up until last night all my research was confirming the information you had that such were post 16th too. Then last night I found that image from a book in my own library while looking up something else, and that broke the dam because now I am finding them all over the place! Still, I enjoyed the search, and have learnt a few other interesting things while doing so.

Kwaw

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by kwaw

On the same page there are links to other calendars that are worth following too.
Kwaw

For example look at May on calendar here:

http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/5/5.7/ms2913.jpg

Sword with crown like TdM Ace of Swords?

Kwaw

[jmd]

I had not seen much of the discussion above as I was preparing a reply whilst being offline, and scanning various images (for another matter).

Even though I and now read the discussion, I have decided to post my response in any case:

I understood that the claim is that the scythe on the Budapest sheets is seen by yourselves to have those indentations as cuttings for cross-handles (and I acknowledge that in the first of my two responses above). Of course, the cuttings may not be seen in that manner, as I tried to show above with the scythe from the 13th century petroglyph from Amiens Cathedral.

What I remain unconvinced about, of course, is that the drawings provided by Rosanne are accurate representations of the only types of scythes depicted during (or onwards from) those times - that is what I continue to question.

But let me try and rather encapsulate some of the questions that are raised, and the context of those questions (solely in regards to the scythe).

DATING OF BUDAPEST SHEETS ____
The suggested dating is early 1500s. This is consistent with the style of imagery generally found. The question is here raised in terms of the depiction of the scythe.

If it was clear that such scythes could not have been depicted at that time, then the dating is indeed incorrect.

Such scythes, however, and even if not found in other places (and as I have done with the Amiens Cathedral carving and add to below) are likely to be found, even if rare, in especially renditions of harvest associated with Cancer (the images thus far given are of that nature - including the mid-15th century French illustration (at first incorrectly dated) Rosanne gives earlier (also reproduced on p 45 of D. Christie-Murray's Practical Astrologer)

Simply in terms of imagery (though I am in no way suggesting we go that far back, nor begin to interpret the following as in fact a scythe), the following circa 1st century Roman-Egyptian famous rendition is perhaps worth a mention (from the temple of Hathor at Denderah):

There are of course various renditions of scythes post-1600, including straight and not straight-handled, with and without cross-bars, and short or long handled. For example, Michelspacher's 1654 Cabala (images from which I have included somewhere in the Kabbalah Forum - I can locate them if necessary) has its Saturnian scythe as straight.

The German c. 1490s woodcut previously included in the "Wheel of Fortune" thread in the Marseille section certainly has a straight long handle for its Saturn, and only an end cross-handle.

This does not mean that local variations in the design of the overall handle did not occur prior to even the 15th century, or that a return to a 'simpler' design did not arise later in some places.

A good example of both types being depicted in a time commensurate with the suggested dating of the Budapest Sheets is the following, from Georg Peurbach, 1515 (reproduced in Warren Kenton's Astrology: Mirror of the Soul, image 22):

Again, I am willing to admit that in each of these cases, the rod or handle is straight, not curved.

So let's look at the Budapest Sheets again.

LOOKING AT THE BUDAPEST SHEETS ____

One may see in the image a curved handle. Quite frankly, however, this is itself a little unclear, and certainly different the the curvature one would normally expect.

The image itself is in any case not as clear as we may like.

Also, and again looking at the image (that I had not as yet re-scanned, so my image resolution is here quite poor... to be fixed later), there ARE NO HANDLES.

Again (as I mention in my first response), I admit that the cut-outs may be an indication that these are intended for handles... but even if the relative lack of image evidence for double handles prior to the 1600s is going to be presented as an argument for there being no such representations, the question may well be asked as to what evidence there may be for such representation being of an intended suggestion of cross-handles (other than a further possible exegeted suggestion that the skeleton is holding the skeleton of a scythe, and hence missing its handles).

Furthermore, and though one may see in the image an intended graceful curve of a handle, I see straight parts not well drawn, with an as easily seen intended straight handle.

Finally, IF the claim that there were double-handled scythes prior to the 1600s is correct, then it needs to have, at least for me, relatively solid evidence when other depictions seem to suggest a manner of holding the scythe in two locations upon the shaft (since at least the 13th c.) that could easily have developed in some localities to the inclusion of two handles.

And that last claim I still have not seen sufficient evidence for, as I mention in my first post. On the contrary, even a paucity of representation may lead one to present the otherwise datable Budapest Sheet to the early 1500s as an example of the kind of scythe being sought.

[Rosanne]

Thanks jmd, those are great images and clear. The problem was that I took an excerpt from one book at the University Engineer's Library, that said there were not two handled scythes pre 1600. I looked at as many sources as I could, and I did not find scythe images with two handles with dated references until Kwaw produced them. So my original base from the Machinery/armaments/tools Encyclopeadia was wrong. There are two handled scythes pre 1600.
The idea that the skeleton from the Dick Fund sheet has a skeleton scythe has great merit- I had not thought of that.
As I said before- all is not lost- it has been an interesting journey and I have seen many Farmers astrological almanacs in the process. They are fascinating documents and considering that they would have been handled much, it is amazing they are still around today- 600 years or so later. It has also confirmed for me the images of Tarot have an extremely strong connection with Astronomy/Astrology. That has been an area I have only played with in a general way, from the Sky above rather the World we live in with its seasons and rhythms. ~Rosanne

[le pendu]

You know...

In a lot of ways this thread really exemplifies what I LOVE about tarot.

Granted... it was getting a bit frustrating trying to dig through all these old references to scythes, on the other hand.. it's the *connections* that I often find so fascinating. The study of tarot leads me to so many wonderful historical aspects.. astrological depictions, farmer's almanacs, danse macabre, fine art, old woodblock prints, history of the development of tools, cathedrals.... it's a huge jigsaw puzzle with pieces scattered throughout history. I often have a hard time explaining to friends what the fascination is.. but I can't imagine a source of inspiration, mystery, and awe greater than the gift we have of exploring this puzzle together. Thanks.