So, Do I throw out -everything- I already know? Got a Definitive TdM Guide?

Fulgour

Bâtons - Coupes - d'Épées - Deniers

Astrologycom.com : the elements and qualities

Astrological signs are categorised by their ancient,
elemental identities of:

Fire (spirit & energy)
Air (intellect & communication)
Water (emotion & nurture)
Earth (material things & security)

These elements are considered the building blocks of existence...
They interpret a much broader range of experience than the
"chemical elements" of modern science, and should not be
confused with them.

They are also known as the quadruplicities...
http://www.astrologycom.com/elements.html

*

"For the Greeks there was no separation between nature and human experience. Like contemporary indigenous peoples they saw humans and nature as part of the same continuum. As such, Greek theories of the natural world attempted to explain observable reality in terms of the behaviour of natural processes as modelled on human behaviour. Thus, the Greek "elements" of air, fire, earth and water, were never thought of as the physical or chemical building blocks of matter, rather they were characterisations of modes of behaviour, activity, or process."

Robert Hand, 1981
Horoscope Symbols, Whitford Press

http://www.astrologycom.com/qual.html

Fulgour

Fun With Numbers by Me

Quality is the key ingredient when interpreting numbers,
with quantity being useful in other ways, as associations.

One through nine are the essential, core numbers, with a
higher number usually being reduced to this basic group.

The following keywords are the ones I like best, taken from
the many available, or my own choices as being appropriate.

One
Beginnings, Independent, Leadership, Pioneering,
Initiator, Solitary, Obstinate

Two
Partnering, Cooperation, Mediating, Diplomatic,
Balanced, Tactful, Submissive

Three
Expressive, Creative, Imaginative, Joyous, Sociable,
Gregarious, Talkative

Four
Stability, Reliable, Practical, Foundations,
Tradition, Labouring, Predictable

Five
Expansive, Changing, Learning, Restless,
Exploring, Adventurous, Reckless

Six
Nurturing, Protective, Responsible, Domestic,
Community, Sympathetic, Fastidious

Seven
Analytical, Thinking, Understanding, Knowledge,
Visionary, Mysterious, Idiosyncratic

Eight
Authority, Power, Status, Organized,
Efficient, Energetic, Materialistic

Nine
Accomplished, Perfected, Complete, Humanitarian,
Generous, Charitable, Patronizing

Fulgour

jmd said:
In terms of a Marseille as a Marseille, there are no 'elements'
save the implements themselves... if by 'element' one means Earth,
Water, Air and Fire.

Regard encore.

jmd

I am aware that of the views of some of the ancient Greek philosophers regarding the manner in which they considered the primacy of the elements. That site linked, by the way, is not quite correct: it is not that Thales or Heraclitus proposed simply the element, but rather that all elements can be reduced to ONE.

For example, Thales argued that moisture, when iced, is the element Earth (ie, solid), when at room temperature the element Water (is, liquid), when in a further state of warmth the element of Air (gaseous), and when further warmed becomes Fire. This he suggested was the case for all things, partaking, in essence, of a 'natural' state of the element of Water.

What they sought to answer, with these elements, is what the world was ultimately made of, given that it appears unstable to our senses.

That Aristotle accepted the four elements was in part due to the ongoing debates that his predecessors engaged in, and especially, I would suggest, the work of Anaximander, who suggested that the various factions could be explained by two principles, each either present or absent: Heat and Moisture. When neither principle is present, Earth is formed (ie, it is cold and dry), when only one, either Fire or Water is formed (ie, Water is cold and wet, and Fire hot and dry), and when both, Air is formed (ie, Air is hot and moist).

Certainly these four elements were also taken on by medicine in the form of the four humours (yellow and black bile, phlegm, and blood), and illness accordingly seen as an imbalance.

I am therefore not suggesting that the four elements were not common at the time of Tarot's emergence. Nor am I suggesting that these same four elements did not also have a role to play in the development of Astrology as it passed through the mindset of Greece and Rome.

And of course, one can find correlations, if one wishes, with the four elements and the four implements represented in the suits used in tarot derived, most likely, from the Mamluk suits.

Having said that, the decks themselves displays not Air, for example, but implements. According to the very way of thinking that the four elements required in former times, to suggest an exclusive association between, for example, cups and air (to give one of the various correlations suggested) goes counter the manner these were understood.

Of course, this likewise does not prevent from the four elements being represented in a manner that has standardised (in differing ways) in the 20th century.

And further, just because when I look at Cups I see cups does not mean that someone else may not see, instead, a symbolic representation of black bile or hypochondriac anger expressed in Autumn (ie - the 'traditional' empodeclean associations with Earth).

Rosanne

Last year I was interested in what Umbrae commented about regarding Fibonacci. I was trying to decipher how I felt about numbers and the pips of TdM and the like.
Fibonacci followed the sacred number poem text of a guy called Hemachandra who was a Jain. Jainism was an Indian religion that travelled into the Middle East and the Mediterranian especially to Sicily. It influenced Arabic thought about numbers apparently. There a a lot of connections that I have not got my brain around yet- but one is Fibonacci's relationship with Frederick 11 whose wife was the Queen of Sicily. A Jainist believes (like many other religions) that each Soul had five parts to its body - Earth= Prithvikaya, Water= Apakaya, Fire= Agnikaya, Air= Vayukaya and Vegetable= Vanaspatikaya held within the concept of Space = akasa or 0. Each part of the body has a sequence of conditions symbolised by sacred numbers 1 through 9 much like Fulgours definitions. So you have Water Akasa = 0 the Ace holds all 1-9 but appears as Number one the beginning- then two is the partnership and balance that creates three etc.
I am not sure if I can make sense by writing this down for others- but it all fell into place- these pips -once I had read about Jainism. The vegetation element is inherent in the other four just like the flowers and leaves on the pips. ~Rosanne

coredil

Hello Fulgour,

Fulgour said:
One through nine are the essential, core numbers, with a
higher number usually being reduced to this basic group.

Could you nevertherless tell your personal keywords for 10?

Fulgour

Implements of Divination

jmd said:
Having said that, the decks themselves displays not Air,
for example, but implements.

Imagine if someone asked you if you would like a cup of tea?
Do you attempt to resolve in your mind every last possibility,
or simply say yes or no? Sure there's a 1000 possibilities but
you're not being asked to defend your knowledge of history,
just if you want a cup of tea. If worried, say: whatcha got?

There is no evidence Tarot was NOT created for divination.
You can assume it was a game, but that is an assumption~
while real evidence suggests: it has always been divinatory.

Therefore of course we have Fire Water Earth Air in Tarot,
it fairly pours forth from every image. This is "DIVINATION"
something sacred~ what care I if some few made it a toy?

Fulgour

jmd said:
That site linked, by the way, is not quite correct...

And you will have noticed I included a warning!
Seeking answers often means "sorting" through
mountains of trash for one nugget of pure gold.

Standard 5-Pound Bag site:
http://www.friesian.com/elements.htm
[Hang on to your hats for this one!

]

Fulgour

coredil said:
Could you nevertherless tell your personal keywords for 10?

Tarot, whether by design or nature, defies every system.
So in each area of the Majors and Minors we come to find
that there is either more (too much) or less (too little) to
provide an exact KEY to link the cards to a hard system.

22 Majors, not 21, with an unnumbered Fool to defy us.
16 Courts, not 12, so the Zodiac will not simply overlay.
Ace through 10, not "1" through 9, defying numerology.

Everything is different in the realm of Tarot, special and
not like what you are accustomed to find anyelsewhere.

So we must learn to discover what we think, what we feel,
what makes sense to us... since only then can Tarot work.

10 to me is mutable, changing, flexible, chameleon-like...
remember you are not counting numbers ~ and explore.

coredil

Fulgour said:
Tarot, whether by design or nature, defies every system.
So in each area of the Majors and Minors we come to find
that there is either more (too much) or less (too little) to
provide an exact KEY to link the cards to a hard system.

Yes, yes.

Fulgour said:
10 to me is mutable, changing, flexible, chameleon-like...

Thank you