Mimers
Study of the Marseilles pips 2 of cups summery
Posted by Diana on 25-03-2003 15:07:
Okay. To get back now to the 2 of Cups, which is a very unusual card.
If we take the Cups to be the water element, we can see that the number two loves water. The twos here have such a solid base from which to work on. See the large red band on the bottom? That's where the energy is stored from the Ace. Red is the colour of activity, of vigour. Of blood - where all our energy is stored. (All the cups contain red liquid). Passion even. Passion can be dangerous too, if not well tamed. (Red is a masculine colour, but twos are more of a feminine nature - hint at the duality of the number 2). And here the energy is stored at the bottom of the card which provides great stability to the Two Cups.
The Two Cups are placed horizontally. They are not concerned with any duality between Spiritual and Material matters (contrary to the Two of Deniers where they are placed differently). They are reflections of each other. Mirrors. But which is the mirror and which is the reflection? On the one hand, it can be useful to have a mirror in front of us to see who we are. But if we end up by gazing too long in the mirror, we can end up being completely narcissic. (Narcissus spent too much time gazing in the water at his reflection - here we have the Water element again).
The Cups are separated by the stem (blue at the bottom and white at the top - we should perhaps discuss colours more fully at a later stage). We can choose to unite, or to dis-unite. The choice is ours. But that little red flower in the middle of the stem is a reminder that we need not be alone if we choose not to.
As to our two little fishies who are drinking perhaps from what will become the third cup in the 3 of Cups, I will be perfectly honest here - they stump me!
Posted by Rusty Neon on 25-03-2003 20:22:
The fishes
In his book _Le Tarot de Marseille_, Paul Marteau suggests that the two fishies are chimeras (the mythical beasts of Greek mythology and, post-Classically, any mythical beast with parts taken from various animals). He appears to view the chimeras as representing passivity of the spirit coming eventually into manifestion….
… Incidentally, "chimera" has entered ordinary English language to also mean "a fantastic or grostesque product of the imagination" (Oxford Canadian Dictionary).
Chevalier/Gheerbrant's dictionary of symbolism suggests that, synthesizing from Greek mythology, chimeras symbolize "mental pictures drawn from the depths of the unconscious and perhaps representing tendencies so repressed that they become a source of suffering".
On the other hand, Tarot author Alain Bocher, commenting on the Conver 2 of Cups, suggests that the fishes are dolphins.
Personally, in view of the 2 of Cups speaking of duality and Water, I can see the fishes as being the two fishes of the watery sign of Pisces. Astrological keywords for Pisces include Merging, Uniting. As astrologer Gail Fairfield notes, the glyph for Pisces "represents two fish who are connected to each other but swimming in opposite directions." "It symbolizes our connectedness to one another in the vast sea of the Universe."
Posted by Mimers on 25-03-2003 21:15:
2 of CUPS
I really love this card. No pun intended. Look at the little fishys. Wow all that red at the bottom. The passion that every thing this card represents comes from. Even the cups are red inside. Everything is filled with passion! (calm down Mimi) ok, I'm calm. Let's see what springs from this abundance of passion?
Emotions. The blue waters of emotions. The two combined create well, I will call it the love flower. The fish of emotions feed on the neckter of the love flower. Mmmm, sweet. (Mimi, calm down!) Sorry. Are they licking the flower? (Mimi, stop now!)
On a more serious note, I noticed that the base of the cups have yellow with black on either side. The base of both cups are both, well organized is not the word I am looking for. Umm, solid. Black reminds me of something solid. Just an observation.
Posted by Khatruman on 25-03-2003 23:18:
Hmmm, those fishies!!!
….First, I find it interesting that this Two, unlike the other three, is reversable. Actually, this is not entirely true since the traditional company attribution is inscribed in the S pattern of the Two of Coins, but regardless of that, in the very pattern, the 2 of Cups is reversable. I did not attribute any significance to the red bar across the bottom of the card, which is curious because, looking at it now, it is quite significant in the pattern: that large red block across the bottom. I like Diana's observation on the significance of red as the color of blood, activity, passion, etc. Would the medieval/Renaissance belief in the four humours of the body (blood, phlegm, black bile, yellow bile) be relevant here? I know that to be an English understanding, but I am not sure if it would apply to the French, or Italians.
Posted by skytwig on 25-03-2003 23:47:
The first thing i saw, upon viewing the 2 of cups, was a mathematical formula. Cup equals Cup? Or that which equals is somewhere else, behind the formula, relating to the manifestation between the cups. The centerpiece appears to be the polarization between the cups. Like two bodies in gravitational attraction, creating this new life, dynamically different and more intricate.
Are they really fishies or be they beasties? And why do the cup mouths look like the 'fishy' mouths? I like the writings about chimera - sends up all kinds of ideas about creativity and creation. As if love interacting with love yields other worlds altogether. For creativity arises from that wondrous dance of the heart and spirit!!!!!! the base of the flowery thing (between the cups) is blue, indicating communication.......
Posted by Khatruman on 26-03-2003 22:54:
Ok, these fishies, which have been associated with chimaera also, hmmm, I keep coming back to fish, but I also see plant attributes, the red tongues being perhaps like a flowers stamen (ok, botanists, am I naming it right? ) I also get images of fancy fountains, ones I have seen in older cities. Concrete fish from which fountains of water stream out. Perhaps the whole centerpiece is a great fountain, in which case the chalices would receive the water overflow from the fountain, and if the fishheads (uh oh, I hear Umbrae singing in the background *L*) issue forth the water, its supply is drawn from the red pool at the base of the card. That is the source which is sucked up in through the base, pours from the tongued mouths of the fish into the fountain head, then overflows into the cups, or back down to the base. Hmmm, significance? Well, I will work on that.
Posted by Diana on 25-03-2003 15:07:
Okay. To get back now to the 2 of Cups, which is a very unusual card.
If we take the Cups to be the water element, we can see that the number two loves water. The twos here have such a solid base from which to work on. See the large red band on the bottom? That's where the energy is stored from the Ace. Red is the colour of activity, of vigour. Of blood - where all our energy is stored. (All the cups contain red liquid). Passion even. Passion can be dangerous too, if not well tamed. (Red is a masculine colour, but twos are more of a feminine nature - hint at the duality of the number 2). And here the energy is stored at the bottom of the card which provides great stability to the Two Cups.
The Two Cups are placed horizontally. They are not concerned with any duality between Spiritual and Material matters (contrary to the Two of Deniers where they are placed differently). They are reflections of each other. Mirrors. But which is the mirror and which is the reflection? On the one hand, it can be useful to have a mirror in front of us to see who we are. But if we end up by gazing too long in the mirror, we can end up being completely narcissic. (Narcissus spent too much time gazing in the water at his reflection - here we have the Water element again).
The Cups are separated by the stem (blue at the bottom and white at the top - we should perhaps discuss colours more fully at a later stage). We can choose to unite, or to dis-unite. The choice is ours. But that little red flower in the middle of the stem is a reminder that we need not be alone if we choose not to.
As to our two little fishies who are drinking perhaps from what will become the third cup in the 3 of Cups, I will be perfectly honest here - they stump me!
Posted by Rusty Neon on 25-03-2003 20:22:
The fishes
In his book _Le Tarot de Marseille_, Paul Marteau suggests that the two fishies are chimeras (the mythical beasts of Greek mythology and, post-Classically, any mythical beast with parts taken from various animals). He appears to view the chimeras as representing passivity of the spirit coming eventually into manifestion….
… Incidentally, "chimera" has entered ordinary English language to also mean "a fantastic or grostesque product of the imagination" (Oxford Canadian Dictionary).
Chevalier/Gheerbrant's dictionary of symbolism suggests that, synthesizing from Greek mythology, chimeras symbolize "mental pictures drawn from the depths of the unconscious and perhaps representing tendencies so repressed that they become a source of suffering".
On the other hand, Tarot author Alain Bocher, commenting on the Conver 2 of Cups, suggests that the fishes are dolphins.
Personally, in view of the 2 of Cups speaking of duality and Water, I can see the fishes as being the two fishes of the watery sign of Pisces. Astrological keywords for Pisces include Merging, Uniting. As astrologer Gail Fairfield notes, the glyph for Pisces "represents two fish who are connected to each other but swimming in opposite directions." "It symbolizes our connectedness to one another in the vast sea of the Universe."
Posted by Mimers on 25-03-2003 21:15:
2 of CUPS
I really love this card. No pun intended. Look at the little fishys. Wow all that red at the bottom. The passion that every thing this card represents comes from. Even the cups are red inside. Everything is filled with passion! (calm down Mimi) ok, I'm calm. Let's see what springs from this abundance of passion?
Emotions. The blue waters of emotions. The two combined create well, I will call it the love flower. The fish of emotions feed on the neckter of the love flower. Mmmm, sweet. (Mimi, calm down!) Sorry. Are they licking the flower? (Mimi, stop now!)
On a more serious note, I noticed that the base of the cups have yellow with black on either side. The base of both cups are both, well organized is not the word I am looking for. Umm, solid. Black reminds me of something solid. Just an observation.
Posted by Khatruman on 25-03-2003 23:18:
Hmmm, those fishies!!!
….First, I find it interesting that this Two, unlike the other three, is reversable. Actually, this is not entirely true since the traditional company attribution is inscribed in the S pattern of the Two of Coins, but regardless of that, in the very pattern, the 2 of Cups is reversable. I did not attribute any significance to the red bar across the bottom of the card, which is curious because, looking at it now, it is quite significant in the pattern: that large red block across the bottom. I like Diana's observation on the significance of red as the color of blood, activity, passion, etc. Would the medieval/Renaissance belief in the four humours of the body (blood, phlegm, black bile, yellow bile) be relevant here? I know that to be an English understanding, but I am not sure if it would apply to the French, or Italians.
Posted by skytwig on 25-03-2003 23:47:
The first thing i saw, upon viewing the 2 of cups, was a mathematical formula. Cup equals Cup? Or that which equals is somewhere else, behind the formula, relating to the manifestation between the cups. The centerpiece appears to be the polarization between the cups. Like two bodies in gravitational attraction, creating this new life, dynamically different and more intricate.
Are they really fishies or be they beasties? And why do the cup mouths look like the 'fishy' mouths? I like the writings about chimera - sends up all kinds of ideas about creativity and creation. As if love interacting with love yields other worlds altogether. For creativity arises from that wondrous dance of the heart and spirit!!!!!! the base of the flowery thing (between the cups) is blue, indicating communication.......
Posted by Khatruman on 26-03-2003 22:54:
Ok, these fishies, which have been associated with chimaera also, hmmm, I keep coming back to fish, but I also see plant attributes, the red tongues being perhaps like a flowers stamen (ok, botanists, am I naming it right? ) I also get images of fancy fountains, ones I have seen in older cities. Concrete fish from which fountains of water stream out. Perhaps the whole centerpiece is a great fountain, in which case the chalices would receive the water overflow from the fountain, and if the fishheads (uh oh, I hear Umbrae singing in the background *L*) issue forth the water, its supply is drawn from the red pool at the base of the card. That is the source which is sucked up in through the base, pours from the tongued mouths of the fish into the fountain head, then overflows into the cups, or back down to the base. Hmmm, significance? Well, I will work on that.