Rusty Neon

I thought I'd share a short point-form checklist of divinatory meaning derivation approaches:

APPROACHES:

Deriving divinatory meanings based on:

(1) Suit and number

Number can be based on

- a system of numerology (Pythagorean, modern, intuitive, etc.),

or

- correspondence with the first ten ten trumps (I to X).

If you want to extend the correspondence with the trumps further, you can use I to X for the upright 1 to 10 of each suit, XI to XX for reversals of the 1 to 10, and XXI for the upright or reversed 1.

(2) Suit, number and pictorial details

This is the approach used by Paul Marteau and many contemporary French tarot authors, e.g., Sédillot.

It has the attraction of approach (1) and uses the particular magic/genius of the TdM.

(2A) Suit, meanings of corresponding trump card, pictorial details of corresponding trump card, pictorial details of the pip card

This variant is used by Marie-Thérèse des Longchamps in her book on the TdM.

As an example, under her approach, the top quarter of the III Empress card corresponds to the 3 of Batons; the second quarter corresponds to the 3 of Swords; the third quarter corresopnds to 3 of Cups; and the bottom quarter corresponds to the 3 of Coins. As well, she extends this approach to the Court cards through the use of Trumps XI, XII, XIII and XIV.

(3) Pictorial detail only (Make a story based simply on the pictorial details)

Or

(4) Suit and pictorial detail

I don't find myself limited to just one approach. You can use any of approaches (1), (2), (3) or (4) as directed by your intuition in the particular case.

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Companion approaches that can used in conjunction with approaches #(1) to (4):

(A) Retro-fit analysis to back-derive Etteilla meanings

(B) Retro-fit to back-derive traditional cartomancy meanings

(C) A possible modern approach could be to do a retro-fit based on RWS/GD meanings (which isn't too far out, as those meanings owe much to cartomancy and Etteilla meanings)

ihcoyc

Like most Anglophone tarotists, the RWS/GD tradition is in some sense primary for me. I look to "pip card" traditions, not necessarily co-extensive with the TdM, to move beyond what seems to me to be the limitations or inconsistencies of what I learned first.

As I've said before, my dissatisfaction with the received RWS/GD meanings stems from my dissatisfaction with its handling of Swords. Is there a reason why the 10 Swords and 10 Wands are two of the worst cards in the whole deck? while the corresponding 10s of Cups and Coins are all sunshine?

My approach tends to abstract out numerology and element, in an attempt to harmonize the received RWS/GD meanings and have them tell a parallel story in each suit. Rather than putting all the burdens of sorrow into Swords/Air, I try to figure out what suit represents all of those negatives based on the questioner and the question.

I am only learning to find meaning in the pictorial elements of the TdM. (These, too, are mostly preserved in my favourite current deck, the Ancient Italian). I am sceptical about how much should be read into these elements, just as I am sceptical about reading a great deal into Marteau's colours. But I am willing to give it a try.

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Le beau valet de coeur et la dame de pique
Causent sinistrement de leurs amours défunts.
__________________ Baudelaire

Rusty Neon

Hi Ihcoyc !



The explanation for the negativity of the RWS/GD DMs for the 10 of Swords (and the Swords generally) and the 10 of Wands seems to be that these DMs derive from a certain set or sets of Continental (Italian, French, Spanish) cartomancy meanings for those cards.

You can find one set of traditional Continental European cartomancy meanings in the pamplet that Lo Scarabeo includes with the LS Ancient Italian Tarots deck. Interestingly, in that LS set, we see the negative 10 of Swords and 10 of Wands; however, not all the other Swords pips have negative DMs. For instance, in that LS set, we see 'travel, reasoning, curiosity, movement' as the DM for the 6 of Swords -- meanings which could even suit the picture in the RWS 6 of Swords.

In some other sets of traditional European cartomancy meanings I've seen, the 10 of Swords isn't negative. However, I do agree that most sets of traditional Continental European cartomancy meanings do tend to assign negative DMs for the Swords suit.

If one wants to look at any given card as having 'gift' vs. 'shadow' meanings based on the question, spread position, or other factors (e.g., elemental dignities, upright/reversal), it can certainly be distracting to have 'negative' pictures on illustrated pip cards.



Yes, exactly, how much should be read into pip card pictorial elements (which are nothing more than random details)? Personally, I don't seek to 'decode' the pip card random details to look for a hidden meaning. On the other hand, I'm not entirely happy to use just numerology and suit or just numerology, suit and received meanings (e.g., RWS/GD, cartomancy, or Etteilla meanings). I cetainly feel more connection with the TdM pip cards if I do take into regard the pip card random details. (Otherwise, I may as well be using a playing card deck or a modern European tarot gaming deck.) For example, in my ongoing reflections on the TdM pips, I try to read the pictorial details in such a way as to give a story and DMs that are consistent with a subset of the set of all possible DMs derivable from the combination of suit and number within a given system of number and suit meanings. (Ooh, that's clumsily expressed.) In a way, the exercise of trying to discover meaning in the random can be a useful contemplative exercise.

As for colours, I personally am reluctant to read a great deal into much into the colour usages that Paul Marteau adopted circa 1930 for the Marteau TdM deck. If I wished to read something into colours in a TdM deck, I'd gravitate more towards the Heron Conver deck and the Jodo-Camoin deck, both of which decks reflect the colour usages of the 1760 Conver pattern deck in the National Library in Paris. ..... not that the National Library deck is the Holy Grail .... after all, there were decks before Conver's ..... and the colour usages and even some of the pip card pictorial details are different as between the National Library deck and the different 1760 Conver specimen that is photoreproduced by Lo Scarabeo.

Cerulean

Just as an aside, I'll see if reading pips via the definitions of B or C apply to the two books below.

*Tarot Decoder by Kathleen McCormack uses the Grimaud (?) Marseilles style deck to illustrate introductary reading concepts. I have it because I love Marseilles style decks...some of it is actually a bit funny, but actually it does show a few pretty modern decks such as Thoth and Ukiyoe in a casual way, as well, in big and beautiful illustrations. A tree of life spread is mentioned, but Kabbalah is not explained. The explanations of a spread, if I remember correctly, focus on a celtic-cross style reading.

*An Illustrated Guide to the Tarot by Jonathan Dee uses the Lo Scarabeo Ancient Italian Tarot, known as the Tarot of Serraville, circa 1880. Only general introductory concepts, but since many of us find the leap to read with non-illustrated pips, this could be a good beginning.

__________________
cerulean daimon...prosperous gales waft ships along, and swell the spacious sails; add gentle peace, and fair-haired health beside, and pour abundance in a blameless tide." - Orphic Hymn 17 to Poseidon

Rusty Neon

Hi mari ... Do McCormack and Dee discuss the pictorial details of the TdM pip cards in their respective books?

Cerulean

I see Rider-Waite-Smith/GD style so that the three of swords for example is heartbreak...with a positive note that it could also mean breaking ground for something else. Once in awhile a numerology source from another culture might be thrown in...and that is slightly disappointing, as I see the Marseilles style pips in the Ancient Italian deck has some interesting decorations with little branches, flowerlets and twigs sprouting leaves.
Some of the very pretty old decks do have decorative pips that would be lovely if the description can mention the detail already in the card, as well. Even the Spanish style pips in the Ancient Tarots of Lombardy (Neoclassical/Di Gumppenberg 1806) has a bit of detail in some of the pips...I'm a thinking...wonder if such descriptions can be made into a little white booklet of one's own.

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cerulean daimon...prosperous gales waft ships along, and swell the spacious sails; add gentle peace, and fair-haired health beside, and pour abundance in a blameless tide." - Orphic Hymn 17 to Poseidon

Diana

Thanks for all this bumping, Rusty Neon.

I was looking at some books today in the bookstore which treat the minors in the Marseilles. I got really annoyed - felt like tearing out pages in the books without anyone noticing (but I didn't - I'm too nice to do that kind of thing ). They were just taking standard RWS meanings and not taking into account anything to do with the actual pictures on the Marseilles decks. All they had done was read a few books based on the RWS and reword what they had already read.

People who do that kind of thing should be shot by the Tarot police. Where are the police when we need them?

Rusty Neon

And sometimes those books use Etteilla or "traditional" meanings meanings of the cards. Unfortunately, those meanings often can't be made reconciled with a number/suit or number/suit/pictorial element approach. This can often be confusing to those who want to use the minor arcana. With such books as resources, it's understandable that various French tarotists just don't bother with the minor arcana when using the Tarot de Marseille for divination.

tmgrl2

Don't have anything in-depth to offer re the pips in TdeM...cards...
I am just getting into reading numbered cards as numbers...

I did get in the mail about a week ago:

Carole Sedillot's Ombres et Lumieres du Tarot...At a glance, it lookds like there are some references to elements other than numbers...but Klea's book Au Fil D'Arcane again, at quick glance, looks like it has discussions of the flowers, e.g.

p 229....discusses a red tulip...(gives description in French and location of flower ) and then, if my translation is accurate....it implies that the central petal may indicate that duality has been overcome by Unity....

Diana, jmd...help me out here..."nervure?" "son petale est le seul a porter une nervure, comme pour indiquer que la dualite a ete vaincue par l'Unite."

On, p. 297...just pulling at random...for Le deux D'Epee (sorry I don't have the accents} Klea refers to "Une grande fleur centrale tricolore" ...a three-colored flower in the center, then she discusses the petals and the heart of the flower...with the tiny white circle/sphere possibly evoking the form of Yod of the Tao or of a spermatazoon....

This summer, when I am not innundated with work, perhaps I will be able to get into these two works...appreciate any reviews from those of you who have since read these books or used them.

I was searching for threads on the TdM pips...and this was the first one to pop up and now I see it is from last year...so guess this post will bump it up....If any one has any links to post, they will be most welcome...

terri

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