How to tell the uprightness of Marseille pips

This thread is a direct consequence of a question Moonbow* asks in the Marseilles pips: the fives thread, about, essentially, how the tell the uprights from the reversals.

With the Cups, the answer is visually obvious, given their form.

With the Swords, though there may be variations in established traditions, generally the odd-numbered swords will have their straight sword pointing upwards. The ten of Swords has two straight swords - the only even number with such - and they too are generally deemed to be upwards pointing.

The two of Coins also has a 'natural' uprightness, with the words - the only ones within the deck, by the way (though many also include the Valet of Coin's title within, rather than leaving it, with XIII, un-named) - coiling upwards.

A number of even-numbered sword cards also usually have a central 'flower' which has an obvious uprightness - for example the four and six of Swords.

This leaves, basically, most of the suit of Coins, most of the suit of Bastons, and a small number of Sword cards.

Even there, some of these develop a sense for their own uprightness. For example, place side by side the three of Cups and the three of Coins. It suggests that the formation of the latter has an uprightness when the depicted equilateral triangle is upright.

One point to make is to not pay too much attention to the patent or copyright markings to determine uprightness. I have a number of editions of the Grimaud Marseilles - their only difference, apart from the year of publication and the thickness of the cardboard stock, is the varied positioning of the copyright imprint on only some of the pip cards...

It it the other cards mentioned which do not have an obvious uprightness which are quite interesting to discuss... and trust this thread will pick up

Thanks Jmd

This is very useful, since my question I found I had a book by Jonathan Dee (which I'd forgotten all about) the deck used for illustrations is not Marseille but the Ancient Italian Tarot. Aprart from the detail and ornateness?? (is there such a word) or the italian deck the pips are very similar. This shows the Ace,7 and 9 of swords with swords facing upwards as upright and the 3,5 and 10 with the swords facing downwards as the upright (if you follow me?)

You can see my confusion. I think, like you said I will gather a sense of which is right when I use them more.

Just in passing though, in other decks where 3 of swords has the swords piercing a heart they are usually facing downwards and baring in mind the meaning of the card, perhaps Jonathan Dee is right???

What do others think?

Hi Moonbow and jmd,

When I first bought my Ancient Italian, I went through the cards at first then noticed that there was no way to tell the reversed cards. Some of them have small black dots next to the number but most of the Sword cards didn't. I ended up going through the deck and seeing which looked more natural Swords hanging or Swords upright. Also some of the Swords have plants on them.

In the end it was just a case of what looked pleasing to me. I marked the Swords with plant stems hanging down and if the Sword was attached to anything like in the 7, 10, 9, 3, 5 Swords, I thought they looked better with the Sword tip pointing down, like they were hanging naturally. The 4, 6, 8 and 2 all have plants which I have stem hanging down. The Staffs and Coins were marked also but alot of these were pretty identical both ways but to make the deck match with its little black dots I marked them anyway, just in case one day I want to read reversal with this deck, which at the moment I don't do.

Edited to add:-

I have Jonathan Dee's book too and when I see the Sword cards I think they look reversed.

I do think it is the Sola Busca influence upon Waite and Colman Smith which has lead to some - including some who use the Marseille - to perceive the three (and sometimes others) of swords as 'properly' pointing downwards.

It may also be, as I have pointed out elsewhere, that there is more than a single view on the matter - as, by analogy, the differing views as to the 'proper' uprightness of a hanging horse-shoe.

For what it's worth, Marteau's book on the Tarot of Marseille - Marteau is the person who has put back the Marseille in the hands of so many through his ownership of the Grimaud publishing house - has the sword cards depicted upright when each of the straight Swords is in the upwards position (as per my previous post).

Of course, this shows his view... but it also suggests, I would claim, a 'standard' way of viewing uprightness in swords within a socio-cultural context. It may be that in a different socia-cultural context, uprightness with regards to sword depiction is 'naturally' viewed differently.

As I mentioned in another post, there is a Templar tradition which carries the sword between 'prayered' hands, point down, allowing to form a natural cross. A sword at rest - unused - may thus be downwards...

In a deck, I personally rarely see a downwards sword as upright. Even language - both French and English - seems to suggest that the 'upright sword' is the upward pointing one. In a reading, of course, more than the uprightness needs to be considered - as the floral patterning suggests.

Maybe this sword issue is more contentious than I envisioned...

I wrote my previous response without seeing Emily's post...

This 'naturalness' which you speak of in the visual depiction is so important, in my personal opinion...

It is also worthwhile, again in my personal view, to flip each of those cards (except for the Cups) and attempt to actually see them as upright. Therein lies some of the intricacies and subtle impact of the Marseille...

..." It is also worthwhile, again in my personal view, to flip each of those cards (except for the Cups) and attempt to actually see them as upright. "

I gonna do this. I feel a real link with these cards.

I just love this thread/topic ~~~~~~~


M*

Can I apply all this to the Oswald Wirth pips as well? I just received this deck in a trade and the cards aren't all going the same way. The only ones I'm having trouble with are the swords.

Hi Firestorm,

You could maybe lay the cards out and see which looks more natural to you. I do still think the cards that seem to hang on ribbons look more natural hanging down rather than pointing upwards. lol

But saying that there are no hard and fast rules, it's what looks right to you, you have to be happy with how they look and read.

Once I had marked my cards (the Ancient Italian is the only deck I've ever had to do) it made the readings much easier. It does make a difference if you can see instantly whether the card is reversed or not.

Emily said:

Hi Firestorm,

Once I had marked my cards (the Ancient Italian is the only deck I've ever had to do) it made the readings much easier. It does make a difference if you can see instantly whether the card is reversed or not.

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I like the way you think. I like my Camoin deck because the author's copyright is in tiny print on the edge in the lower left corner, and my Tarot Classic deck has the roman numeral in tiny print, as well, in the same lower corner I can figure those two and the Hadar out anyway because its apparent that the flower or sword in the middle is facing upward. However, in the Wirth deck, the crossed swords and the sword in the center are always facing opposite and if I go by the foilage that goes around all the cards, sometimes the crossed swords are upward, and sometimes downward, which makes the one in the center facing either direction as well. AAAAAGGGGHHHHH!!!!! I'm ready to go back to illustrated minors! The ONLY reason I'm going through all this is that I read here somewhere before that the way things/people are pointing/facing makes a difference in the meaning. Oh, and of course, the book that comes with it only addresses the majors. Ah, well.....onward. Thank you for your input.

firestorm said:

Can I apply all this to the Oswald Wirth pips as well? I just received this deck in a trade and the cards aren't all going the same way. The only ones I'm having trouble with are the swords.

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firestorm: I think you should just make a "pact" with your Wirth minors - so that you know which ones you are reading upright with and which you are not. Because Oswald Wirth did not design the minors - these were an afterthought by US Games to make the deck more marketable. Your guess would be as good (and probably better) than theirs.