The Fool and the Magician

TemperanceAngel · 27-11-2003

OK well I feel way out of my depth in this forum, but what the hey, I am very interested in the educated replies that may appear.

When I think of the Fool, my mind often wonders off to Kingdoms long ago when the Court Jester entertained. But not just entertained he was the Kings' confidant and, in fact, the only one who could ridicule the King. The Jester was always 'one step ahead' and knew everything about everyone. So it does not surprise me that he becomes the Magician in Tarot, but in life as well. (Gosh I really don't know where I am going with this!)

To think of the Magician, my mind wonders to Merlin and, most recently my favorite Magician: Gandolph (is that spelt correctly?) I like how these two archetpyes weave into Mythology and Legend, but can also be modern day heros ie: Houdini.

Now I don't know if there is a question as such but I would love hear anyones' thoughts on these two cards mingled with Mythology, Legend, History, Modern Day Heroes or anything else that links to this? Thanks ahead of time.

I am sorry if you have spoken about this before (I did look through threads) or if it seems as though the tangent I am on, only belongs in my mind.

XTAX

catboxer · 27-11-2003

Hi, TA:

Like you, I have a hard time thinking of one without the other. They're the perfect binary set: one, and no number, or you might say, number and no number.

A really skeptical person might tell you that these two were originally conceived simply to represent the two fundamental conditions of the common run of humanity -- the worker and the tramp, hobo, or mendicant. But that takes a lot of skepticism. Most of us are looking for something a little more esoteric than that.

I think of them as the dreamer and the doer. One's got his head in the clouds and the other's got his mind on his business.

All poets, philosophers, and other assorted dreamers are aimless wanderers. They're too busy with their thoughts to watch where they're going. By the same token, all workers are magicians of a sort. A carpenter magically transforms odd pieces of wood into useful objects. A banker creates wealth by manipulating little electronic blips on LCD screens. Just like magic.

So here's my take on this pair: http://www.tarotseeker.com/secrets.html

Which also gives me a chance to show off my nifty new deck -- I got it a few days ago and I'm so stoked. It's the Renault deck from Besançon, of about 1820. Actually, it's a sort of second edition of the J. Jerger deck, of the same town, of about 1800. Apparently Renault bought Jerger's woodblocks and resumed printing with them, after eradicating most of the earlier publisher's insignia throughout the deck and placing his own imprint on the deuce of cups.

The stencil work on the Jerger deck was superior to Renault's.

But here I've gotten way off topic, and a worthwhile topic it is. I'm sure others will have a lot more to say.

TemperanceAngel · 27-11-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by catboxer

All poets, philosophers, and other assorted dreamers are aimless wanderers. They're too busy with their thoughts to watch where they're going. By the same token, all workers are magicians of a sort. A carpenter magically transforms odd pieces of wood into useful objects. A banker creates wealth by manipulating little electronic blips on LCD screens. Just like magic.

Which also gives me a chance to show off my nifty new deck -- I got it a few days ago and I'm so stoked.
The stencil work on the Jerger deck was superior to Renault's.

Thanks for getting way off the topic and thanks for showing off your new deck, it is so worth showing off!!!

I often think the Fool is far more intelligent than he is given credit for....philospher, dreamer....YES, but that belongs in another thread probably.....

And thanks for saving what I thought was a sinking ship....

XTAX

**jmd** · 27-11-2003

This thread is certainly no sinking ship...

Rather, two aspects of this area of the Forums often take place: on the one hand, many try to think carefully as to how best to respond... which may take some days of reflection; on the other hand, the 'simplest' of questions often have the most of difficult plausible answers... Combined, they may lead to threads 'appearing' dormant, as kernels planted deep in the Earth may appear dormant.

...on catboxer's 'aside', it is so pleasing to sense into what it must be like to have recently received this treasure of a deck. I trust it brings you many years of further profound reflections

I also very much like catboxer's take on the three pairings linked to his site... and look forward to others

With regards to this dual aspect of both Jester/Fool-Prestigitator/Magician, I personally find it fascinating how closely connected - and yet how so far apart - these two cards are.

It is worth contrasting these two cards. Whilst the Magician/Basteleur stands still, feet firmly planted, legs immobile, with his 'atelier' spread in front of him for all to see and his hands free to move and manipulate the elements he is to work, the Fool/Fou by contrast has his legs and feet in motion, but his arms and hands restricted to either holding a spoon-staff in which his travelling goods are securely closed, or holding a walking staff by which to assist his path.

With each, a significant 'assistant' to his 'work' is shown only partially. With the Magician, a (fixed) table; with the Fool, a (moving) animal. With each, only some of the legs are shown.

Another aspect which is really a linguistic similarity which works in French - but not in English - is that both are related to the word 'marche'. With the Basteleur, it is the sense of market (Marché) - his wares are displayed, whereas with the Fou, it is the sense of walking (marcher)...

poivre · 27-11-2003

Hi,
besides the obvious meanings I think the Fool as someone carrying nothing of the past or Karma , he is free at this moment. The Magician is about to make his own Karma with what he does with his knowledge .
Something like that, just an idea.

**Ross G Caldwell** · 28-11-2003

Historically speaking (only historically speaking :-) it is interesting to remember that in the two complete listings of trionfi that have come down to us from the 15th century, the Matto is placed at the *end* of the series, not the beginning - so he forms no obvious pair with the Bagatino.

These orders are:

The Steele Sermon (plausible dates from 1460-1500 - very unsure).

Boiardo (plausible dates from 1461-c. 1480).

In both, Matto is listed at the end; in the Steel Sermon, unnumbered and outside the series, and in Boiardo, as the last in the descriptive list.

Boiardo is more subtle, however. Of course, it is not the same list of trumps as the tarot deck, although it has 22 trumps (he explicitly says "twenty-two triumph cards"), and some are the same names as the TdM. Secondly, although he lists the Matto last in his descriptive passage, he does not include it in the tercets. Instead, he starts the tercets with Il Mondo - the World - which is "Folly that men adore." He is thus very playful, in the way of poets.

We might compare the Mantegna, which has "Misero" as the lowest card (or highest, since it is number 1), but here he forms no obvious pair with the Servant (Fameio) who comes next either.

However, the Sola Busca triumphs, which are plausibly dated around 1500, do have a Matto numbered 0, and in the Cary Sheet he is *next* to the Bateleur. However, this evidence may be countered with the Rosenwald, where there is no Matto present next the Bateleur. He is therefore outside of the series here. That is, if the Matto's proximity to the Bateleur in the Cary Sheet is taken as evidence of a pairing, then the absence of such a relationship in the Rosenwald Sheet must be taken as giving equal weight to the contrary hypothesis - to be fair.

The earliest written list which gives the Matto the *lowest* or first place on the list of atouts appears to Troilo Pomeran in 1534 (Triomphi de' Pomeran da Cittadela composti sopra li Terrochi).

So the idea that the Matto *must* come first, and thus forms a pair with the Conjurer as the "commoners" station in a ranks of man series, does not seem so self-evident to me.

Only historically speaking of course.

Ross Caldwell

**jmd** · 28-11-2003

I agree with Ross - but not only from a historical perspective.

Personally, I do not view the Fool as beginning of the series. It just does not seem to make as much sense as placing him penultimate, or as final, card (unless one takes a series such as the Mantegna - but then we are not dealing with Tarot any longer).

Iconographically, there is a sense in which, to take Mark Filipas's Alphabetic Masquerade to task, that the Fool belongs 'naturally' at the end of the series...

This of course doesn't preclude us from making paired comparisons with any two cards, whether adjacent or in other ways symbolically or conceptually connected

Diana · 29-11-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
To think of the Magician, my mind wonders to Merlin and, most recently my favorite Magician: Gandolph (is that spelt correctly?)

You mean Gandalf from the Lord of the Rings? (Cool guy that one...)

The Bateleur is not a Magician, as in the sense of the Magician in the Rider Waite decks, or the Thoth deck. There is no Golden Dawn in the Marseilles deck.

The Bateleur is the candidate for initiation. He begins the Tarot journey. He stands outside the Temple. To enter it, he needs to first meet the Papess, before he is allowed access. He is a Magician only in the sense that he has the Potential to become one.... but he is not there yet - not until he reaches the World and steps one more step.... when he becomes the Fool - when his heart and mind no longer struggle with each other - when he steps out of the World as we know it.

As to myths: I have a lovely book called "Mythes et Tarot: Le Voyage du Bateleur" by Dicta. et. Françoise. They have chosen one myth for each Tarot Arcanum. For the Bateleur, they chose Orpheus (who is truly a candidate for initiation). He seeks the Golden Fleece (i.e. himself) with his Argonaut companions.

For the Fool, they chose Bel-Gargan, who is not known, I think, outside of the Francophone world (but the Church didn't like him and they attacked this myth rather strongly around the 12th Century and changed him into a Saint. They really didn't leave any stone unturned.... But they didn't get hold of the Tarot - ha, ha,ha!)

**jmd** · 29-11-2003

Mentioning mediaeval legends, it is also worth recalling, with regards to the Fou, that he may also be related to the 'Wandering Jew' (le juif errant - which I make a passing reference to in either VIIII the Hermit or the Fou thread).

The legend stems from a comment which Christ made to a person who rushed Christ onwards as he was resting his burden on his way to Golgatha. He responded with a remark that the person would wonder until Christ returned... there are in fact a couple of mild variants to the legend (whether a Roman or Jew was one variant), but it was popular in the 11th Century through to the Florentine Renaissance.

The Jew was therefore to wonder from place to place until the Second Coming. One version has it that when he reached the grand old age of 100, he would miraculously appear very young again (errr.... for some of us young. To be precise, he would miraculously appear to be 30yo again).

... and so he still wonders - until the end - until XXI

Diana · 29-11-2003

jmd: Did you write "wonder" on purpose with an "o"?

Beautiful language of the birds.... I wondered lonely as a cloud as I wandered.

TemperanceAngel Citizen Join Date: 21 Oct 2003 Location: A Parallel Universe Posts: 5,039	The Fool and the Magician OK well I feel way out of my depth in this forum, but what the hey, I am very interested in the educated replies that may appear. When I think of the Fool, my mind often wonders off to Kingdoms long ago when the Court Jester entertained. But not just entertained he was the Kings' confidant and, in fact, the only one who could ridicule the King. The Jester was always 'one step ahead' and knew everything about everyone. So it does not surprise me that he becomes the Magician in Tarot, but in life as well. (Gosh I really don't know where I am going with this!) To think of the Magician, my mind wonders to Merlin and, most recently my favorite Magician: Gandolph (is that spelt correctly?) I like how these two archetpyes weave into Mythology and Legend, but can also be modern day heros ie: Houdini. Now I don't know if there is a question as such but I would love hear anyones' thoughts on these two cards mingled with Mythology, Legend, History, Modern Day Heroes or anything else that links to this? Thanks ahead of time. I am sorry if you have spoken about this before (I did look through threads) or if it seems as though the tangent I am on, only belongs in my mind. XTAX

27-11-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #1

catboxer Citizen Join Date: 23 Mar 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 374	Hi, TA: Like you, I have a hard time thinking of one without the other. They're the perfect binary set: one, and no number, or you might say, number and no number. A really skeptical person might tell you that these two were originally conceived simply to represent the two fundamental conditions of the common run of humanity -- the worker and the tramp, hobo, or mendicant. But that takes a lot of skepticism. Most of us are looking for something a little more esoteric than that. I think of them as the dreamer and the doer. One's got his head in the clouds and the other's got his mind on his business. All poets, philosophers, and other assorted dreamers are aimless wanderers. They're too busy with their thoughts to watch where they're going. By the same token, all workers are magicians of a sort. A carpenter magically transforms odd pieces of wood into useful objects. A banker creates wealth by manipulating little electronic blips on LCD screens. Just like magic. So here's my take on this pair: http://www.tarotseeker.com/secrets.html Which also gives me a chance to show off my nifty new deck -- I got it a few days ago and I'm so stoked. It's the Renault deck from Besançon, of about 1820. Actually, it's a sort of second edition of the J. Jerger deck, of the same town, of about 1800. Apparently Renault bought Jerger's woodblocks and resumed printing with them, after eradicating most of the earlier publisher's insignia throughout the deck and placing his own imprint on the deuce of cups. The stencil work on the Jerger deck was superior to Renault's. But here I've gotten way off topic, and a worthwhile topic it is. I'm sure others will have a lot more to say. __________________ Dave B

27-11-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #2

Ross G Caldwell Citizen Join Date: 07 Jul 2003 Location: Béziers, France Posts: 2,361	Historically speaking (only historically speaking :-) it is interesting to remember that in the two complete listings of trionfi that have come down to us from the 15th century, the Matto is placed at the end of the series, not the beginning - so he forms no obvious pair with the Bagatino. These orders are: The Steele Sermon (plausible dates from 1460-1500 - very unsure). Boiardo (plausible dates from 1461-c. 1480). In both, Matto is listed at the end; in the Steel Sermon, unnumbered and outside the series, and in Boiardo, as the last in the descriptive list. Boiardo is more subtle, however. Of course, it is not the same list of trumps as the tarot deck, although it has 22 trumps (he explicitly says "twenty-two triumph cards"), and some are the same names as the TdM. Secondly, although he lists the Matto last in his descriptive passage, he does not include it in the tercets. Instead, he starts the tercets with Il Mondo - the World - which is "Folly that men adore." He is thus very playful, in the way of poets. We might compare the Mantegna, which has "Misero" as the lowest card (or highest, since it is number 1), but here he forms no obvious pair with the Servant (Fameio) who comes next either. However, the Sola Busca triumphs, which are plausibly dated around 1500, do have a Matto numbered 0, and in the Cary Sheet he is next to the Bateleur. However, this evidence may be countered with the Rosenwald, where there is no Matto present next the Bateleur. He is therefore outside of the series here. That is, if the Matto's proximity to the Bateleur in the Cary Sheet is taken as evidence of a pairing, then the absence of such a relationship in the Rosenwald Sheet must be taken as giving equal weight to the contrary hypothesis - to be fair. The earliest written list which gives the Matto the lowest or first place on the list of atouts appears to Troilo Pomeran in 1534 (Triomphi de' Pomeran da Cittadela composti sopra li Terrochi). So the idea that the Matto must come first, and thus forms a pair with the Conjurer as the "commoners" station in a ranks of man series, does not seem so self-evident to me. Only historically speaking of course. Ross Caldwell __________________ ΑΓΕΩΜΕΤΡΗΤΟΣ ΜΗΔΕΙΣ ΕΙΣΙΤΩ Trionfi http://trionfi.com Tarot Essays http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot

28-11-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #6

jmd fourhares Join Date: 05 Aug 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 8,502	This thread is certainly no sinking ship... Rather, two aspects of this area of the Forums often take place: on the one hand, many try to think carefully as to how best to respond... which may take some days of reflection; on the other hand, the 'simplest' of questions often have the most of difficult plausible answers... Combined, they may lead to threads 'appearing' dormant, as kernels planted deep in the Earth may appear dormant. ...on catboxer's 'aside', it is so pleasing to sense into what it must be like to have recently received this treasure of a deck. I trust it brings you many years of further profound reflections I also very much like catboxer's take on the three pairings linked to his site... and look forward to others With regards to this dual aspect of both Jester/Fool-Prestigitator/Magician, I personally find it fascinating how closely connected - and yet how so far apart - these two cards are. It is worth contrasting these two cards. Whilst the Magician/Basteleur stands still, feet firmly planted, legs immobile, with his 'atelier' spread in front of him for all to see and his hands free to move and manipulate the elements he is to work, the Fool/Fou by contrast has his legs and feet in motion, but his arms and hands restricted to either holding a spoon-staff in which his travelling goods are securely closed, or holding a walking staff by which to assist his path. With each, a significant 'assistant' to his 'work' is shown only partially. With the Magician, a (fixed) table; with the Fool, a (moving) animal. With each, only some of the legs are shown. Another aspect which is really a linguistic similarity which works in French - but not in English - is that both are related to the word 'marche'. With the Basteleur, it is the sense of market (Marché) - his wares are displayed, whereas with the Fou, it is the sense of walking (marcher)...

27-11-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #4

poivre Citizen Join Date: 13 Nov 2003 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 6,596	Hi, besides the obvious meanings I think the Fool as someone carrying nothing of the past or Karma , he is free at this moment. The Magician is about to make his own Karma with what he does with his knowledge . Something like that, just an idea.

27-11-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #5

jmd fourhares Join Date: 05 Aug 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 8,502	Mentioning mediaeval legends, it is also worth recalling, with regards to the Fou, that he may also be related to the 'Wandering Jew' (le juif errant - which I make a passing reference to in either VIIII the Hermit or the Fou thread). The legend stems from a comment which Christ made to a person who rushed Christ onwards as he was resting his burden on his way to Golgatha. He responded with a remark that the person would wonder until Christ returned... there are in fact a couple of mild variants to the legend (whether a Roman or Jew was one variant), but it was popular in the 11th Century through to the Florentine Renaissance. The Jew was therefore to wonder from place to place until the Second Coming. One version has it that when he reached the grand old age of 100, he would miraculously appear very young again (errr.... for some of us young. To be precise, he would miraculously appear to be 30yo again). ... and so he still wonders - until the end - until XXI

29-11-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #9

Diana Citizen Join Date: 01 Jan 2002 Posts: 8,213	jmd: Did you write "wonder" on purpose with an "o"? Beautiful language of the birds.... I wondered lonely as a cloud as I wandered.

29-11-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #10

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