The valet de Coupe's bib

Hello to the forum. Looking at hats in some RWS clones has made me curious about a detail of the Marseilles and I wonder if anyone has any ideas about this.

The Valet de Coupe has a kind of bib coming from under his collar of his tunic. It is not clear exactly but it looks like it does not cover the cup, but just sort of enfolds it, because you can see the entire oval of the opening of the cup (I am looking at Lo Scarabeo's Conver)

The Grand Etteilla and the Oswald Wirth both show this bib-thing covering the cup.

This could be interpreted different ways, but I wondered if there were any traditional meanings. What is this article of clothing? What does it mean that it is sort of covering and revealing the cup at the same time? I wonder if this bib was the inspiration for the flowing veil on the Page of Cups' hat in the RWS deck.

Only eight of the courts are even looking at their objects (none of the Kings do) and of them the Valet de Coupe gazes at his most intently. He cants his head forward, almost peering *into* the cup rather than at it. He seems to have taken off his hat-- out of respect? It is an intense card.

Thank you very much to any who answer!



--Myrrha

Do not think that because your keen observation and question remains at this stage unanswered, that it is somehow dismissed... It is difficult at times to see one's question lay apparently dormant - this whole area seemed like a deeply planted seed which awaited - and awaited some more - germination before threads of green new shoots were to slowly emerge...

But to the card.

I was hoping to catch up with a priest friend of mine (who tends to prefer to celebrate High Anglican services) to get the name of the 'bib' you so aptly describe. It is used at times by those who have not been consecrated or at least made to the office of priest to handle the Chalice or the paten of the bread (within the tabernacle). These are usually in 'sacristy' - or sacred vestments or covering, the Chalice only touched directly by the officiating priest.

I must admit that I, with you, have tended to take this card as somewhat very special: here is an emissary or server who has deep reverence for the tasks he undertakes. His hat removed (yet in some decks he remains 'crowned' with not thorns but flowers), bringing the Cup of everlasting Hesed (covenant/grace/mercy). Containing, then, the sacred, it remains covered, protected... a sacred and holy or devotional act.

To show a different version of the card, I have attached the Hadar version... and plan to return for further comment.

My goodness, that is very odd! Very odd indeed! Is it also on the Camoin? .... checking... Ah! yes/no... he has a bib thing going up, yes, but it is not obscuring the cup. The valet's bib on the card you posted jmd is like an entire shroud! Reminds me of the ceremonial (white silk?) covering which protects the Torah.

Precise analogy, firemaiden

The sacred covering of the Torah - which also has a name... I wish I could recall it, but am at a total loss.

In the thread on Le Pape, I also posted an image which I personally found extremely evocative its depiction of the Old and New Testaments (symbolically depicted)...

I should mention, for those who do not have the Conver Marseille (Héron edition), that it is in many ways very similar to the Hadar previously posted, save that, importantly, the cloth seems to 'float' above and a little behind the Chalice, revealing its deep red content filled to the brim. Also, on the Conver, the spherical mid-joint of the cup is light blue, rather than red as in the Hadar. There are other differences, which I hope to show once I - or someone else - gets a scan of the image... another two of note are the blue crown of flowers and the dagger not being as obvious.

The Hadar, in its courts, has a peculiar habit of making the ground of a straight horizon line - the Conver clearly shows him to be outdoors, on variegated ground with some three tufts of grass or bushes.

Apart from the general colour difference between the Conver and the Hadar (virtually opposite in many respects), I would have thought that to the Mediaeval mind especially it would have brought to mind the sacred duty of bringing the Chalice to the officiating Priest for Consecration - for transfiguration... and here is a word full of import for those who would have participated in its mysteries.

I have at times also wondered how this particular card reflects on Cathar or Gnostic heritage to the cards - not in its original Mamluk forms, but in the form it developed in precisely the Marseille...

Thank you JMD and Firemaiden, you have given me a lot to think about!

If anyone wants to see the Conver Valet de Coupe there is a scan here:
http://membres.lycos.fr/tarobat/mesjeux/Jeux.htm

go to Conver (Heron) and then "Gallerie des Valets"

It is interesting that the contents of the cup are sometimes revealed and sometimes not. I thought Kris Hader followed the Conver pattern but here he departs from it. It seems meaningful both ways. Having the contents shown together with the Valets reverent attitude feels more like it is about something that can be experienced, while having it covered seems to emphasize the feeling of mystery.

The Kris Hader design that shows a knife makes a lot of sense to me, it balances this intense joy and respect in the card with an intimation of pain. Still, I wonder if the small squiggle in the Conver is actually meant to be a knife. It is curved like a kris, not straight like a European dagger.

--Myrrha

In his book _Nouvelle interprétation du Tarot de Marseille - Voyages en arcanes mineurs_ (a book devoted exclusively to the court cards of the 1760 Conver TdM - Heron), Guillaume Ugérin's analysis of the cup in the Valet of Cups card is based on the idea that this cup is an hourglass.

jmd said:

His hat removed (yet in some decks he remains 'crowned' with not thorns but flowers), bringing the Cup of everlasting Hesed (covenant/grace/mercy). Containing, then, the sacred, it remains covered, protected... a sacred and holy or devotional act.

Click to expand...

Hat? Are you sure it is not the lid/cover of the Cup? I don't think the Valet of Coupes has a hat.

He is protecting his treasure, just like the Hermit protects his with his cape. He will not show it to all and sundry for what is in that Cup is far too precious.

Given the way in which many of the Cups are depicted, with their tops or covers included, I had long thought that his left hand carried the removed topping of the Cup...

I suppose I posted forgetting this - for a number of years ago I personally altered the way I saw this card after carefully looking at this object from a variety of Marseille renditions: I now tend to see it as his soft hat, with feather partly visible. In readings, of course, I may see it as something other (whether Cup covering, purse or other).

But of course, I should not have posted as though there is no ambiguity in the image: Cup cover it may well be

Hi Diana. It could be the cover of the cup, I never thought of that. In a way that makes it even more interesting because he has uncovered the cup only to cover it (sort of) with his bib. Even more tension between revelation and concealment/protection.

Rusty Neon I am wondering about this idea that the cup is an hourglass. Does the author of that book explain about the bib?


--Myrrha

Myrrha said:

Rusty Neon I am wondering about this idea that the cup is an hourglass. Does the author of that book explain about the bib?

Click to expand...

hi myrrha ... Ugérin doesn't indicate that the bib-like part of the garment has any ecclesiastical or liturgical significance. He does write that "the cup is hidden by the upper fold of the garment, just as the Hermit holds the lantern that guides him in his individual search towards the truth". He goes on suggest that "in the cup is a powerful secret that must not be delivered to just any mortal and that the valet is going to transmit, carry to the queen".