Six coins - Hadar

Hi there,

I have just made this amazing discovery! Amazing to me but probably not to the rest of you, however I would like your comments.

I am looking at the Hadar 6 Coins and started to count the petals on the flowers just inside (not the very small flowers). They number as so:

xxx15xxx
11xxxx12
14xxxx16
xxx13xxx

First impressions were that this was a hexagon but follow me if you will. Join up the 11, 12, and 13 and then the 14, 15 and 16, and you have the two triangles which make up the Star of David. One points earthwards and the other towards the spirit. One is the active and the other the passive, one masculine and the other feminine. This indicates an all round balance to me. Peace and harmony.

Does the same occur on other TdM decks? Am I stating the obvious? Your thoughts?

J

Not only that, but 11+12+13=36=9, and 14+15+16=45=9…

Guys that's too cool. I have no intelligent commentary, just want to thank you for the insight. Now to go run & check out the card itself

Originally posted by Jewel-ry I have just made this amazing discovery! Amazing to me but probably not to the rest of you, however I would like your comments.

Click to expand...

Hi Jewel-ry,

This is a fantastic find! I'll bet Camoin & Jodo. wish they had incorporated a similar pattern in their Six of Coins, since it is such a clever invention.

It inspired me to look closer at the Six of Coins in other Marseilles decks I have, and those that are reproduced in Kaplan's Encyclopedia volume II. But, I do not find any other deck showing an "interlaced triangle" pattern in this card. (I also did not find other Marseilles examples having the six-pettalled flower which Hadar depicts inside the coins of his deck.) My impression is that the pattern you've found is one of the liberties which Hadar took in his redrawing of the deck, rather than it being something he carried over from an early historic deck.

Thanks for posting this!

- Mark

Jewel-ry WOW!!!!

Hi Jewel-ry,
With my new deck in hand I finally figured out what you meant...and now have a first item for a TdM journal entry...just gotta get the journal.
Interesting find. Have no idea what else to say. Except that, this is my first post to the TdM board as a bona fide TdM owner.

Was easier than I thought.

Thanks!

You rock, Jewel-ry!! Never noticed this.

Last night,though, I was reading Paul Foster Case's book (out of print...got a used copy) and although I don't agree necessarily with his placement of the Fool (0), he does discuss the numbers 0-9 in terms of the Occult symbol/diagram whose basis of construction is the six-pointed start, or "Shield/Star of David" or "The Star of the Macrocosm."

I wish I could scan in a picture. I'm sure one of our iconology experts will have a picture. The picture I have is not just that of the Star of David, but of the six circles, tangent to a central seventh, within which the Star rests. The center of this diagram is the oval (0) with points A through H connecting and forming the shapes representing numbers 0-9. Case says that this drawing/diagram is a key to the geometrical construction of the great Pyramid, to the true occult meaning of the apron worn by Free Masons, to the correct construction of the Qabalistic diagram know as the Tree of Life and to the proportions of the msterious Vault in which the body of hte founder of the Rosicrucian Order is said to have been found.

So the six-pointed star rests within this complex disagram of the Cosmos....

I love that you noticed this, Jewel-ry. When I am using Hadar I try to count petals and flowers, but never even noticed that each of these Deniers had a different number of petals.

Just gazing at Le Six de Deniers, one can see the balance, symmetry and harmony within the card. Also, the opposites of the two sets of three coins, each group forming it's own triangle, one above and one below (as it is above, so it is below).

It's as if these two sets of three coins are complementary to each other, with the foral patter that separtes them acting as a mediating influence.

Gazing again, the floral pattern dividing the deniers gives us a square in the center (the four earthly elements) with two others, one above and one below.

I'll bet, too, that Camoin wishes he had incorporated this! It is so subtle yet meaningful.

Thank you for starting this thread. I have a feeling we are going to be doing more and more like this as people gather up a Tarot de Marseille and "play" with it.

terri

This is as close to one in Case's book. Scroll down to black and white diagram near end of page:

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Campus/7107/reflect2.html

terri

Indeed a great discovery, Jewel-ry, thanks!


The following is only detailled work, but I am surprised that all of the Hadar deniers have these 'irregular' floral patterns. Here is a complete list:


D01

16 outer leaves, 6 inner leaves, 10 tiny dots in the center

D02

16 outer leaves, 6 inner leaves, 10 tiny dots in the center
10 outer leaves, 5 inner leaves, 10 tiny dots in the center


now, in the following, the first number indicates the no. of outer leaves, the 2nd no. is the no. of inner leaves

D03

----------12-6----------
----18-5--------19-5----


D04

----15-5--------11-5----
----11-5--------15-5----

D05

----14-5--------15-5----
----------10-6----------
----11-5--------12-5----

D06
----------15-6----------
----11-5--------12-5----
----14-5--------16-5----
----------13-6----------

D07

----18-5--------19-5----
----------13-6----------
----14-5--------15-5----
----10-5--------11-5----

D08

----16-5--------13-6----
----11-6--------18-5----
----14-5--------15-6----
----17-6--------12-5----

D09

----13-5--------10-5----
----11-5--------12-5----
----------14-6----------
----16-5--------17-5----

----18-5--------15-5----

D10

----12-5--------12-5----
----------10-6----------
----14-5--------15-5----
----11-5--------12-5----
----------16-6----------
----12-5--------12-5----

Vaslet

11 6 top left
10 5 bottom left

Chevalier

12 7 top right

Royne

12 8 top left


Roy

11 9 mid left
(11 = 9 visible + 2 covered by his fingers)

The inner leaves of the Figures seem to indicate their ranks:

(5, 6) -> 7 -> 8 -> 9

By the way, the Jodo/Camoin also has 'irregularities' in the floral patterns, however, I didn't have the time to count them yet, and surprise, the Marteau/Grimaud, too, they look quite similar to the JC, at least on a first look. I hoped to find some hints about the leaves in Jodo's book, but couldn't find anything about it.

Jewel-ry said:

Does the same occur on other TdM decks?

Click to expand...

Every 20th century redrawing of the Marseilles (e.g., Marteau, Jodo-Camoin and Hadar) changes the coin details of the 1760 Conver Tarot de Marseille in some ways - e.g., changes to number of points in the coin, relative size of the black area of the coin, etc. It's a shame that the redrawers feel a need to re-do tradition and to wipe out esoteric data. Surely there must be some magic in the 1760 Conver (or for that matter, the 1701 Dodal, etc.) to explore and discover. It would be all the more fun and significant to use the 1760 Conver, etc. to embark on the adventures in detail-study that you guys (Jewel-ry, smleite, Eberhard) are doing, given that those cardmakers of the TdM Golden Age were presumably closer to the original fountain. That said, discoveries of interesting details in 20th century redrawings have merit in their own right as well.

(Edited to correct typos)