Camoin Marseilles - 2 "coins" on Valet and Roy

faunabay · 13-10-2002

When I posted about the different titling of the valet de deniers Diana pointed out that the valet not only had different titling but also had 2 "coin" symbols. And this may be explained in that this card was earth of earth.
Well I began looking closer at the deck and noticed that the valet AND roy de deniers had 2 of them!!!! And these were the only two court cards that did have 2 symbols of the suits??????
I have to throw up my hands and say "I have no clue why this is." Anyone feel like filling me in?

ihcoyc · 13-10-2002

On my handiest Marseilles deck from here (the Fournier) the King of Coins does not have two coins. I'm reasonably certain the King of Coins has only one coin in Grimaud as well. The Page of Coins has two, and the different placement of the text here.

However, I did notice that the King of Swords gets two swords in the Fournier. I have no notion if this is something that other decks reproduce, or whether any meaning is attached to it by anyone or not.

**jmd** · 13-10-2002

I realise that Ihcoyc mentions that the Page of Coins is Earth of Earth - which is the way in which various people, including the Golden Dawn, describes such. However, this isn't, again, intrinsic to the cards.

There are a number of courts which have more than one implement upon the depiction. For example, the Queen of Cups often has what appears to be a sword and a cup, the Knight of Coins often has a Club in addition to the Coin, the King of Swords also has what appears to be a wand or sceptre, as does the Queen of Coins.

On the 1760 Conver deck, these various multiple items are only found on five cards:

the Valet (Page) of coins (two coins);
the Cavalier (Knight) de Deniers (coins) (a club and a coin);
the Queen of Deniers (a coin and a sceptre);
the Queen of Cups (a cup and a sword/staff); and
the King of Swords (a sword and a sceptre - though this second may possibly be either a long-bladed dagger or the sword's scabbard).

I think that what is important is to seek for what is depicted and its possible meaning, without trying to 'fit it' into a tabular elemental form (earth of earth &c.) - though I must admit that, aside for the appropriateness of the sceptres with either kings or queens, the suit of Deniers is the only one with this double implement in the Conver, leading quite 'easily' to this tabulation!

ihcoyc, I wonder if the Fournier (which I do not have) 'two swords' on its King of Swords is really a scabard/sceptre and sword - as is on both the Burdel and Conver, or whether these are truly two swords.

Unfortunately, I do not have scans of the court cards, and thus cannot post them for ease of comparison. Quite frankly, I think that, like the door added on XVI the Tower by Camoin, this 'adding' of a second coin on the King of Deniers is an unfortunate 'addition'... though found on some versions!

Diana · 13-10-2002

edited

faunabay · 14-10-2002

Quote:

Originally posted by jmd

ihcoyc, I wonder if the Fournier (which I do not have) 'two swords' on its King of Swords is really a scabard/sceptre and sword - as is on both the Burdel and Conver, or whether these are truly two swords.

In the Camion the king of swords does actually have a sword AND a dagger - hmmmm, hadn't really noticed that one. But the page does have a sword and the scabard - at first I thought he had 2 swords.

On another titling thing though, I noticed that the Reyne (queen) de Baton (wands) is actually spelled Baston!!

Again the only Baton I saw spelled that way.

I've gone to the Camion website which lists a message board and chat. Neither of which are up and running though! ??? I think I'll email them to see when it might be back up.

Diana · 14-10-2002

edited

ihcoyc · 14-10-2002

Quote:

Originally posted by jmd
ihcoyc, I wonder if the Fournier (which I do not have) 'two swords' on its King of Swords is really a scabard/sceptre and sword - as is on both the Burdel and Conver, or whether these are truly two swords.

On the Fournier, there are definitely two swords. The second sword in his belt also has the little ball dingy on the hilt that is also on the hilt of the large sword he wields in his right hand, which more or less precludes it from being a scabbard. Both are painted gold. (FWIW: the Fournier Marseilles deck is a Spanish painted Marseilles, recoloured in somewhat fancier tones by A. Aymerich under the direction of Maritxu de Guler)

Perhaps the King of Swords is actually a samurai.

faunabay Citizen Join Date: 28 Aug 2001 Location: Missouri, USA Posts: 8,216	Camion Marseilles - 2 "coins" on Valet and Roy When I posted about the different titling of the valet de deniers Diana pointed out that the valet not only had different titling but also had 2 "coin" symbols. And this may be explained in that this card was earth of earth. Well I began looking closer at the deck and noticed that the valet AND roy de deniers had 2 of them!!!! And these were the only two court cards that did have 2 symbols of the suits?????? I have to throw up my hands and say "I have no clue why this is." Anyone feel like filling me in? __________________ aeclectic name: faunabay fairy name: Pithia Feedle Blackthorn Silvenslipper

13-10-2002	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #1

ihcoyc Citizen Join Date: 07 Sep 2002 Location: The Bastille Posts: 803	On my handiest Marseilles deck from here (the Fournier) the King of Coins does not have two coins. I'm reasonably certain the King of Coins has only one coin in Grimaud as well. The Page of Coins has two, and the different placement of the text here. However, I did notice that the King of Swords gets two swords in the Fournier. I have no notion if this is something that other decks reproduce, or whether any meaning is attached to it by anyone or not. __________________ Le beau valet de coeur et la dame de pique Causent sinistrement de leurs amours défunts. __________________ Baudelaire

13-10-2002	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #2

jmd fourhares Join Date: 05 Aug 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 8,502	I realise that Ihcoyc mentions that the Page of Coins is Earth of Earth - which is the way in which various people, including the Golden Dawn, describes such. However, this isn't, again, intrinsic to the cards. There are a number of courts which have more than one implement upon the depiction. For example, the Queen of Cups often has what appears to be a sword and a cup, the Knight of Coins often has a Club in addition to the Coin, the King of Swords also has what appears to be a wand or sceptre, as does the Queen of Coins. On the 1760 Conver deck, these various multiple items are only found on five cards: the Valet (Page) of coins (two coins); the Cavalier (Knight) de Deniers (coins) (a club and a coin); the Queen of Deniers (a coin and a sceptre); the Queen of Cups (a cup and a sword/staff); and the King of Swords (a sword and a sceptre - though this second may possibly be either a long-bladed dagger or the sword's scabbard). I think that what is important is to seek for what is depicted and its possible meaning, without trying to 'fit it' into a tabular elemental form (earth of earth &c.) - though I must admit that, aside for the appropriateness of the sceptres with either kings or queens, the suit of Deniers is the only one with this double implement in the Conver, leading quite 'easily' to this tabulation! ihcoyc, I wonder if the Fournier (which I do not have) 'two swords' on its King of Swords is really a scabard/sceptre and sword - as is on both the Burdel and Conver, or whether these are truly two swords. Unfortunately, I do not have scans of the court cards, and thus cannot post them for ease of comparison. Quite frankly, I think that, like the door added on XVI the Tower by Camoin, this 'adding' of a second coin on the King of Deniers is an unfortunate 'addition'... though found on some versions!

13-10-2002	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #3

Diana Citizen Join Date: 01 Jan 2002 Posts: 8,213	edited Last edited by Diana; 26-03-2006 at 07:24.

13-10-2002	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #4

Diana Citizen Join Date: 01 Jan 2002 Posts: 8,213	edited Last edited by Diana; 26-03-2006 at 07:24.

14-10-2002	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #6

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