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Relational horary mutual reception and aspect by sign

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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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Relational horary mutual reception and aspect by sign


I'm posting this for reference and I'll update it as it evolves. It's a case of mutual reception with no application but aspect by sign (there will be application further down the line as I explain below). A friend of mine asked today if there is a relationship for her in 2017. To clarify, she is a mature person, seeking a long-term serious relationship and possible co-habitation if not marriage, therefore firmly 7th house matter. Chart was cast on January 21 at 17:30 in Toronto.

She is the Sun in the 7th (4 degrees from cusp moves to next house), she is very interested in a relationship. He (potential partner) is Saturn in the 5th, he is flirty but open. If I flip the chart he would be in his 11th which is still a social house although neither the 5th nor the 11th equal my friend's commitment. This is reinforced by the mutual reception: Sun is in the sign, triplicity and minor dignities to boost of Saturn. Whoever this man will be, she will be very much into him. Sun is in detriment but luckily angular, so I wouldn't consider her debilitated, rather way too interested but able to act and determined to do so. Saturn, thankfully, is in the triplicity of the Sun (and a number of his own minor dignities!), so at least likes her and more than a face or term would mean. It is not as strong as domicile or exaltation but is right after them in rank and with the 5th house placement, I take it as he will be interested in dating.

There is no applying aspect from Sun to Saturn BUT they are in aspect (sextile) by sign. I like sextiles more than even trines in relationship horaries, Sextiles are Venusian in nature and work well, in my opinion. There will be an applying aspect later on. The sextile will perfect on February 14th (now isn't that cool? Valentine's Day!) in real life. In horary terms I rather think she will get into something in 20 weeks (degrees from Sun to Saturn in angular house and fixed sign = medium speed). That's 5 months. There will be no other planet coming in between to prohibit as only the Moon, her co-significator, will go back and forth and I don't take Moon's interference as prohibition, except if she meets someone else but I see no proof for this in the chart.

The Moon is in the 4th and is trining Mars which rules the 4th from the 7th which i'd look into for end of the matter - I like it as Mars has triplicity, terms and face and is ruled by Jupiter - not a bad position to rule the end of the matter. If I take the 4th as end of the matter, Jupiter is conjunct and he had a sextile with Saturn. Also, a good sign.

All together, I now want to see if the mutual reception with aspect by sign but no application will produce a relationship prior to a/ February 14th by ephemeris or b/ June 2017 or even July 2017 as per my calculations. I want to see if the mutual reception will lead to perfection without an applying aspect in force. I think the 5-month time frame is more realistic.
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The Sun is below the horizon, so the Triplicity ruler for Sagittarius, is Jupiter, rather than the Sun.

The Sun will complete a trine to Jupiter in Libra before it reaches the sextile to Saturn. As Jupiter is in a lesser degree than Saturn and is slowing to it's Station Retrograde. So the aspect to Saturn is prohibited by the trine to Jupiter. Now as Jupiter rules Saturn, you might make something of that in terms of support for Saturn. The Moon, in late Scorpio will sextile the Sun shortly after it moves into Sagittarius In real time that has already happened, with the Moon's current position as of Now at 5 degrees 28 Sagittarius and the Sun is at 3 degrees 4 minutes and you can't treat the Moon as effecting the matter through a conjunction with Saturn. The Moon will square Venus and Mars in Pisces before she reaches Saturn and on 4th Feb she will join the Sun in Conjunction for a New Moon.

In this case, I'd take the Detriment of the Sun to indicate that she feels quite vulnerable seeking a relationship and while she has the capacity to act because the Sun is angular, she may find it inhibiting to take that step of seeking out a life partner.
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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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Um... You know, it was a day chart. To me Sun has triplicity. And in general, I take triplicity rulers, all of them, in consideration. You have done it too. With my charts. This leaves my analysis unchanged. However, as discussed, there was a sxtile between Saturn and Jupiter. If I take Jupiter first, may be a third party will whisper about Saturn. This seems a fast moving chart, we'll know soon enough.

P.S. I specifically posted the chart as, in my opinuon, no applying aspect but only by sign, therefore have not relied on an applying sextile but to me there is reception.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
Um... You know, it was a day chart. To me Sun has triplicity. And in general, I take triplicity rulers, all of them, in consideration. You have done it too. With my charts. This leaves my analysis unchanged. However, as discussed, there was a sxtile between Saturn and Jupiter. If I take Jupiter first, may be a third party will whisper about Saturn. This seems a fast moving chart, we'll know soon enough.

P.S. I specifically posted the chart as, in my opinuon, no applying aspect but only by sign, therefore have not relied on an applying sextile but to me there is reception.
Well by your own admission the Sun was below the horizon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
She is the Sun in the 7th (4 degrees from cusp moves to next house), she is very interested in a relationship. He (potential partner) is Saturn in the 5th, he is flirty but open. If I flip the chart he would be in his 11th which is still a social house
Solar Fire, Delphic Oracle and Morinus all show the Sun as being below the Horizon. Solar Fire's Horary module gives Jupiter Triplicity rulership for the Fire signs.

Now you can't convert a nocturnal chart into a diurnal chart by shifting the Sun 4 degrees upwards. What you can do, is to argue that with the Moon in the fourth, the Sun is the Predominator but that doesn't change the sect of the chart, but it does treat the Sun as being the stronger light.

Also, if it were a diurnal chart, and the Sun and Saturn had their mutual reception, an aspect would still be required for perfection. The mutual reception on it's own can't bring the matter to fruition. As you say there is a 20 degree separation between the two planets coming into sextile. In that time frame the Sun will square Jupiter before it gets to the sextile with Saturn and that will prohibit the matter. The Moon, her co-significator, will aspect firstly the Sun by sextile (an aspect that has already been completed and was the Moon's next aspect. The Moon won't take the light of the Sun to Saturn because it will aspect Venus and Mars in Pisces and Jupiter in Libra before it reaches Saturn.

Your best defence would be to argue that a number of medieval Astrologers, would still see the Sun as a (rather than the) triplicity ruler and give it the points, even though it's not the ruler of sect. That might get over the issue of whether there's a mutual reception or not but it still does not get over the intervening aspects of both the the Sun and the Moon.
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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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Hi Minderwiz, what i meant is that I do take the triplicity rulers in consideration at all times of day and night when i look for reception. All three of them, including the "additional" third for each triplicity. Not trying to put the Sun anywhere. Just works better for me that way, I think.

I think you didn't understand me or I miscommunicated. I never argued there is an applying aspect. I did post the chart precisely because I want to follow up on a chart which allows me to check if the old way of seeing two planets in sextile signs plus reception will bring the matter to perfection. Without an actual applying sextile between the planets themselves. Just in sextile signs.

P.S. I do not share the view that mutual reception needs an applying aspect to perfect the matter. I don't think this was ever absolutely agreed upon either. I remember Bonatti requires an aspect but not all of them did. Besides they considered aspects by signs too, so it's a bit unclear if they meant an applying aspect by the planets or the planets being in aspecting signs. Which is why I want to test it and this chart is good for it. I also believe I ha d a chart with mutual reception not so long ago and I have to go back and see what happened there.
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OK. So you don't mind any other aspects, which might seem to prohibit the sextile, such as the Sun's aspect to Jupiter or the Moon's aspects to the Sun. I don't think that anyone ever did a horary in that way just going off aspects between signs. Whilst Hellenistic Astrologers did use them, they did not have a system of horary. The nearest that they came was in Hephaistion if Thebesin Apotelesmatics Book III (a claim, made by Ben Dykes. I have his Translation and I'm not fully convinced). Sahl and Masha'allah, who were the source for Bonatti, both required aspects, even for mutual reception, see Dykes, Works of Saho and Masha'allah, or Holden Six Astrological Treatises by Masha'allah.

It will be interesting to see how this works out
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Yes, they did. Valens, for example. What I am wiling to test here is precisely what they did: when two signs see each other, any planet within the signs will be considered in aspect witb a planet in the otner sign, regardless their degrees which degree based one I now call "applying aspect". If two planets were in signs that saw each other or beheld each otner, with reception to add, there should be something delivered. I didn't bother much with the Sun aspect because Sun is a secondary significator of a male and she is thinking of serious relationship which, in today's world, may well rep,ace traditional marriage. But my main point is to test the aspect by sign plus reception as means of bringing perfection.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
Yes, they did. Valens, for example.
Who did what? I can see several possibilities from my previous post, the Who could be Hellenistic Astrologers, pr Bonatti or Sahl and Masha'allah] the what could be Horary Astrology, whole sign aspects, doing horary by whole sign aspects alone or ignoring intervening aspects by one of the significators or it might mean someone and some actions which I didn't mention there. I'm at a loss to know what you are referring to and I don't see where Valens fits in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia

What I am wiling to test here is precisely what they did: when two signs see each other, any planet within the signs will be considered in aspect witb a planet in the otner sign, regardless their degrees which degree based one I now call "applying aspect". If two planets were in signs that saw each other or beheld each otner, with reception to add, there should be something delivered. I didn't bother much with the Sun aspect because Sun is a secondary significator of a male and she is thinking of serious relationship which, in today's world, may well rep,ace traditional marriage. But my main point is to test the aspect by sign plus reception as means of bringing perfection.
The two planets could be separating by degree, they would still be in a whole sign aspect for example Venus at 15 Pisces and Saturn at 12 Capricorn. That's both a whole sign aspect and a degree based aspect but it's not applying. There's also the matter of whether Reception requires an applying aspect, or indeed any degree based aspect.

In this horary, the Sun is her significator,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia


'She is the Sun in the 7th (4 degrees from cusp moves to next house), she is very interested in a relationship. He (potential partner) is Saturn in the 5th,'
Your words, my italics.

You can't therefore dismiss it as a secondary significator of a male. Any intervening aspect made by the Sun, signifies some event for her, relevant to the question. The Sun's square to Jupiter means something for her and in Horary as derived from Sahl, Masha'allah and Lilly that aspect would prohibit the sextile bringing the matter to conclusion.
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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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This is about semantics at this point already. I did explain I meant aspect by sign (instead by degree), regardless if whole houses or other system was used and Bonatti also did it (and Valens). I don't think it's important how we'll call it but if it will produce a result.

True, Sun is her, but Jupiter is still conjunct the IC and in such a question, no, I won't hold the aspect against a positive outcome, having her aspecting the major Benefic on the IC who justvseparated from Saturn L7 when she is craving precisely that - family like relationship.

We'll see what comes out. Soon, I think.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
This is about semantics at this point already. I did explain I meant aspect by sign (instead by degree), regardless if whole houses or other system was used and Bonatti also did it (and Valens). I don't think it's important how we'll call it but if it will produce a result.
\no it isn't ablut semantics, it's about copmprehending the written word. I found that opening statement confusing. It wasn't clear who 'they' were and it wasn't clear what they did, that is significant to a response to my comment above.. It could have been anything from my previous post I sat scratching my head for a minute. For example, You might have been saying that the Hellenistic Astrologers did practice Horary, which depending on how the statement is read could have been your point. Your statement could have referred to Sahl and Masha'allah, who were the last people I referred to. I'm not a mind reader. I have to make sense of what you write and that phrase was capable of several interpretations.

What the Hellenistic Astrologers didn't do was have a concept of Reception. The nearest they got was the concept of exchanging houses - similar to Mutual Reception but they didn't have a one way concept. That comes with Masha' allah and Sahl.

Masha'allah is careful to use the phrase 'degree by degree' in his consideration of Reception, so his concept is degree based. His orbs are not clear, as he will allow Mars and Saturn to be in square, with an orb of 10 degrees. Yes Jupiter is on the IC (whatever house system is used) but there's 20 degrees separation between Sun and the trine, which is pushing things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
True, Sun is her, but Jupiter is still conjunct the IC and in such a question, no, I won't hold the aspect against a positive outcome, having her aspecting the major Benefic on the IC who justv separated from Saturn L7 when she is craving precisely that - family like relationship.


We'll see what comes out. Soon, I think.
But by the time the Sun makes it to the square to Jupiter (today) Jupiter has been aspected by other planets, most (her co-significator) which has also gone on trecently Venus, which has already gone on to square Saturn.

As the separation from the square between Venus and Saturn was under 5 degrees, You could just as easily argue that it is this aspect that has a better chance of bringing the matter to fruition, as Saturn would have consecutively aspected both benefics. As you say, we will soon know the answer.
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