Newbie to Thot

sweet_intuition

Hi

I'm relatively new to the thot tarot deck. For about 6 years, I've been using the original rider-waite deck. I had heard a lot about the thot deck, but I always used to get repelled by the green color box. The cards were too big and had an ugly greenish cast to them which kind of gave me a bad feeling about it.

However, about a month ago, I stumbled upon the Swiss-Amg Mueller, pocket sized thot cards, which came in a purple-ish box (containing a thin book called "Tarot- A mirror of the Soul" By Gerd Zeigler. These cards were really beautiful and i felt drawn to them instantly. The images were brilliant and I felt as though these were the cards for me.

Before reading anything about them, I did a one card reading with them, asking, "are you the cards for me?", and I pulled out "4 of Disks - Power", so I just took that as a yes. Even though I love the Original Rider Waite Deck, this deck has such a powerful magical quality to it, that I just want to use it all the time.

Unfortunately, although these cards are beautiful, they really challenge me at times. At first I tried to use them as reversals, but when I would pull out a reversed card (face down), I would be tempted to turn them over because of the reversed position of the cross on the back of the cards. I then heard somewhere that Crowley made these cards with the intention so that they cannot be used in reversals (can someone tell me if that's true), and the negative and positive meanings came out depending upon if a card is dignified and ill-dignified (can someone throw some light?)

Another thing that confuses me is how to interpret them in a divinatory sense. The Gerd Zeigler book isn't very helpful, and I've started reading the Book of Thot a week back and just finished the major arcana bit. What good books can i buy to learn to use the thot deck for divinations? Also, I have plenty of books based on RWS cards and regular tarot manuals, can I use those divinatory meanings for the thot cards or do they have their own meanings.

And when it comes to timing, with my earlier RWS deck, i used the method taught by Mary Greer in her Tarot for yourself handbook:

Wands = Days
Cups = Weeks
Swords = Months
Pentacles = Years

Court cards:-
Pages = Beginnings
Knights = The Process itself
Queens = Maturity and Fruition
Kings = Completion.

Can these be used for the thot deck? If so, do princesses count as pages, and princes as knights, and Thot Knights as RWS Kings???


I know these queries are simplistic, and many of you out here have discussed them a lot of times before. However, as a newbie over here, and to the thot deck, it would really mean a lot if someone would be kind enough to help me out here. I really love the Thot Deck, I don't want to give up on it.

Thank You
 

Alta

Hi sweet_intuition.

Welcome to the Thoth Forum. As you comment, many of the questions you ask have been discussed, so starting to poke back through the threads will help you.

Also there is a Forum Index at the top of the Forum which I haven't been that faithful with but which has a lot of these topics.

sweet_intuition said:
(containing a thin book called "Tarot- A mirror of the Soul" By Gerd Zeigler.
This book is not highly respected by many serious users of the deck. Crowley's Book of Thoth, which you have already started, is the main key to his deck. Duquette's book, "Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot" ISBN 1578632765 is also helpful to get started.

Unfortunately, although these cards are beautiful, they really challenge me at times. At first I tried to use them as reversals, but when I would pull out a reversed card (face down), I would be tempted to turn them over because of the reversed position of the cross on the back of the cards. I then heard somewhere that Crowley made these cards with the intention so that they cannot be used in reversals (can someone tell me if that's true), and the negative and positive meanings came out depending upon if a card is dignified and ill-dignified (can someone throw some light?)
You are correct, the cards are not designed to be used with physical reversals. The system of elemental dignities is used to show when the cards are showing their weaker or stronger aspects.

This is discussed in both books mentioned above, also, here are some reference links, and first here is a direct link for ED's:
http://www.supertarot.co.uk/lessons/03edrul.htm

And a thread discussing ED's

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=45119&highlight=Elemental+Dignities

http://www.tryskelion.com/preface.htm

http://www.rahoorkhuit.net/library/thoth/trumps/index.html

A link to Golden dawn material, which is the basis for this deck (may be more advanced that you would like right now):

http://www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no8/eqi08016.html

An interesting thread discussing whether using the cards by your personal insights or intuitions or using the books is better:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=28857

Another thread started by a beginner:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=50924&page=1&pp=10


A nice discussion on:

Why is the Thoth deck so highly rated?

Another thing that confuses me is how to interpret them in a divinatory sense. The Gerd Zeigler book isn't very helpful, and I've started reading the Book of Thot a week back and just finished the major arcana bit. What good books can i buy to learn to use the thot deck for divinations? Also, I have plenty of books based on RWS cards and regular tarot manuals, can I use those divinatory meanings for the thot cards or do they have their own meanings.
The Thoth is really closer to Golden Dawn than the RWS. Very difficult, almost impossible to use an RWS text to help you with Thoth divinatory meanings.

Try and use Crowley's own book, which you have. Intuition, experience and working with the cards will help. as will (over time, not to discourage you) exploring related fields. Quaballah, astrology, numerology etc.

And when it comes to timing, with my earlier RWS deck, i used the method taught by Mary Greer in her Tarot for yourself handbook:

Wands = Days
Cups = Weeks
Swords = Months
Pentacles = Years

Court cards:-
Pages = Beginnings
Knights = The Process itself
Queens = Maturity and Fruition
Kings = Completion.

Can these be used for the thot deck? If so, do princesses count as pages, and princes as knights, and Thot Knights as RWS Kings???
Sorry, can't help you here with the timing question. never had any luck with timing things using tarot.

Keep in mind that in the Thoth Tarot the sequence is:
Pages, Prince, Queen, Knight and not the RWS sequence which you list above. You definitely want to read Crowley or Duquette to understand how he meant that. Also see this thread:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=12692

I know these queries are simplistic, and many of you out here have discussed them a lot of times before. However, as a newbie over here, and to the thot deck, it would really mean a lot if someone would be kind enough to help me out here. I really love the Thot Deck, I don't want to give up on it.

Thank You
For further information, try the Search Engine found at the upper, near-right, top of the Forums.
 

Lillie

Do you know what?

I also find that green box repellant.

But I don't mind the green cards.
I like them best in a white box.
 

sweet_intuition

Hey Marion

Thank you for taking the time out to clarify my doubts and providing the really helpful and enlightening links. You have indeed been a great help. I particularly enjoyed reading that thread which debated whether the thot required a basic study before an intuitive reading or not, very enlightening.


I really love my Thot deck, and i guess the more it challenges me, the more I fall in love with it. I don't know why it took me 6 years to find the perfect version (swiss), but I suppose it all happens for a reason. The pips are so elaborate in symbolism. As I've been studying astrology for about 9 years, the minor cards are indeed a help with their astrological correspondence (they are basically the decans right? not the planet in the sign?). Plus the way the wands, and swords are illustrated, almost give them more character than the human figures on the RWS pips.


Another thing I'd like to ask is, the method of divination given at the end of the Book of Thot, have you or anyone else over here used that particular method? I have been using the regular spreads throughout, (Celtic, 3-card, Cross Roads, Path to a goal..etc etc) can those be used with the thot deck as well or do we have to master that system of divination?


Another thing about elemental dignitaries, from what I learned from those links, fire goes well with air, but neutral with earth and repellent with water, Water goes well with earth, but neutral with air and repellent with fire (and so on... correct me if i got it wrong). Using this, yesterday an old friend was desperate for a reading regarding her job. I did a three card reading with the thot deck, and the following cards came out:

........ 3 of Disks (Works)....... Fool........ Princess of Cups.....

Now taking the dignitaries into account, Three of disks represents Earth, and Fool represents Air (Mutually repellent elements), And Princess of Cups, represents water is neutral to Air and goes well with earth. From this reading I divined that in the present, The Fool shows a chaotic period in her work life, numerous new things occuring due to certain changes she's experienced in the work place, However, the Princess of Cups indicated the beginnning of something new coming up, which would be of greater advantage to her, and would make all the chaos occuring presently worth it. Perhaps even a romantic interest blossoming out of it all, or perhaps forming a deeper bond with some colleague, but her career itself would take a turn for the better. I didn't want to go into more details because I wanted to study more of the deck before using it for more divinations. Could you or anyone else perhaps shed some more light to this reading? Did I do it right? Any help would be greatful.


Her Lillie

Glad to see someone else felt repellent to the green box.
I love my purple swiss box. Only wish it came with a better book.


Thank you all
 

Aeon418

sweet_intuition said:
As I've been studying astrology for about 9 years, the minor cards are indeed a help with their astrological correspondence (they are basically the decans right? not the planet in the sign?).
No, they are both. Each minor card represents one decan of the zodiac, but each card also has a planetary attribution. This gives you the planet in the sign which, when combined with it's sephirotic and elemental attribution, gives you the overall meaning of the card.

P.S. I love the green box. :laugh:
 

MikeTheAltarboy

Personally, I use the method in the Book of Thoth. Since the Thoth tarot is very Golden Dawn based - complete with *almost* identical titles for each card, it makes sense to at least give the Golden Dawn method a chance. And it's been at least as successful to me as any other. However, I - and many people, I suspect - only use the first operation, or even something less. For most questions, there's no need to stretch it out longer. You can learn more about it and elemental dignaties, broken down to be more palettable at http://supertarot.co.uk - if you haven't already been.
Welcome to the Thoth! :)
 

sweet_intuition

Aeon418 said:
No, they are both. Each minor card represents one decan of the zodiac, but each card also has a planetary attribution. This gives you the planet in the sign which, when combined with it's sephirotic and elemental attribution, gives you the overall meaning of the card.

Hey Aeon418

Thanks for the info, it helped me understand the minor cards better.

MikeTheAltarboy said:
Personally, I use the method in the Book of Thoth. Since the Thoth tarot is very Golden Dawn based - complete with *almost* identical titles for each card, it makes sense to at least give the Golden Dawn method a chance. And it's been at least as successful to me as any other. However, I - and many people, I suspect - only use the first operation, or even something less. For most questions, there's no need to stretch it out longer.

Hey Mike,

Could you perhaps give me an example of how you use that method of divination, along with when and when not to stretch it through all the five operations? It would really help me a lot, for I find it a bit too cumbersome to do all those opperations for one question.

Also, when picking a signifactor, on some sites, it says simply to use The Magician for a male querent, and The High Priestess for a female querent. Others say to use the court cards keeping the astrological correspondence in mind (i.e. someone born on October 12th, the signifactor would be Queen of Swords). Another says that a court card which represents the querent based on the question and situation (a "desperate housewife" looking for a spark of energy, queen of disks).

So which method do you or anyone else over here use to choose a signifactor for doing the divination method given in the Book of Thot?

Also, could regular spreads be used just as well, instead of performing all the various operations?


Thank you all for being so kind to help me out here by answering my queries. I'm really touched by all your kindness and help. I'm sorry if I'm being tooo inquisitive or tooo big a nitwit asking all these novice questions, but I really love my thot cards and want to master them the best that I can. So thank you all for all your kind help and support.
 

MikeTheAltarboy

For the significator, do what seems natural to you. :) I pick one based on looks. Red headed woman? Queen of Wands. Dark complected young man? Prince of Disks. Sometimes I'll use Sun Signs instead, and the BoT lists the astrological associations for each court.

I have the querent shuffle, then cut the deck into 4 stacks. Find which stack has the significator. If it's the earth stack, "We're looking at business and money." If the water stack, "Love and pleasure", etc.

Fan those cards out. Start with the significator, and just start rambling a story. I use the card I'm on and the one on each side for elemental dignities, and otherwise use only their titles: If the significator is, let's say, Queen of Wands (fire) and on either side are Debauch and Blended Pleasure, I'll say "You were at a party, and it was fun, but didn't agree with you afterwords." Count acording to the rules from card to card, just keeping an even flow of the narrative. When you hit a card you've hit before, that's the end.

Next, pair the cards from outside in, still looking at their elemental dignaties and titles. You'll end on either one card or 2. One card says "This is where it's headed." 2 says "This could go either way."

I wrap it up there!

If there was a "when" to stretch it out, I'd say that would be when you're an Adept and are about to perform a Great Work of Holy Magic, and wish to ensure the universe is in agreement, and how it will work out. ;-)

Also, could regular spreads be used just as well, instead of performing all the various operations?
hehe. You can do *whatever you want*. :)
This way just suits me. I don't feel myself to be very "intuintive" and I certainly don't know how to scry. For me the more "regular" (in the sense of being bound by rules) forms of divination like geomancy or the Opening of the Key for tarot are much easier. :)
 

sweet_intuition

Hey MikeTheAltarboy,

Thank you so much for your advise. It's really helping me understand and appreciate the cards more and more. I'm sorry for the late response, been busy with stuff at home and plus I've finally finished reading the Book of Thot (And it wasn't easy, but I did, and I think I got most of it, I think).

You guys Rock!
 

MikeTheAltarboy

Congratulations!

hehe. After you let it set for a while, pick it up and read it again. You'll be amazed at what you missed the first time. :)