Just Curious...

LRichard said:

However, the numbering is a superficial difference and doesn't even begin tell the whole story. Crowley's apparent reversion to the Marseille numbering is not directly related to the cardinal number placement of the Strength and Justice cards. It has to do with the Hebrew letter correlations of the Emperor and Star cards (as well as the Strength and Justice cards) and their positions on the Hermetic Tree of Life.

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Crowley's numbering of the trumps may have been influenced by the Hebrew letter correlations, but the older decks were not, as far as historical evidence has shown. We should be careful to make that clear, as all of this information will likely be overwhelming and confusing to anyone who is new to older decks, their numbering and their history.

There have been a lot of overlays placed on the old tarot decks and the newer ones that those old decks inspired, but they can be read without any of those overlays, on the other hand, they can be read with heaping portions of them. It's up to the reader. I just don't want to see anyone get confused and think that the oldest tarot type decks actually incorporated any of this other information, because as far as we know from the historical evidence available, they did not.

What has that to do with anything? Amanda asked a specific question about the connections between two specific decks belonging to a specific tradition. I didn't see anyone get confused and one really can't be expected to preface every post with a disclaimer. The Marseilles decks are what they are, the GD changed it, Waite kept it and Crowley changed it back because of his own reasons. What would be really confusing would be if we went into why he changed it back, but LRichard mercifully for all of us (believe me) didn't go into it.

Not to mention, this is the RWS forum, the express place to discuss exactly what LRichard was talking about.

The Crowley deck does not differ from the Waite deck in the ordinal placement of Justice and Strength. In the Crowley deck, Strength is still placed before Justice on the Tree of Life and uses the same astrological and Hebrew letter correlations. The cardinal numbering of Crowley's deck is only indirectly related to the cardinal numbering of the Marseille deck. This is a fact and not an appropriate topic for debate.

Thank you closrapexa.

Amanda said:

Yes, the leminscate -- it's connected to Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, infinity, isn't it?

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Errmmm ... thats the whole thing about infinity ... it cant, by definition have a beginning nor an end.

closrapexa said:

How much they hated each other can be glimpsed in Crowley's brilliant review of Waite's deck in the Equinox.

www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no3/eqi03014.html

Scroll down until you get to the section entitled "The Key to the Tarot."

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Good God Clos ! ... some of that 'purported style' of Waite's evasiveness reminds me of ...

Oh! excuse me ... someone is at the door ...

LRichard said:

I can't see an "Alpha and Omega" on Adjustment. Where is it?

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TRy putting the hand triangle over the other eye

Closrapexa,

it has every thing to do with Amanda's own words. If she is confused about when the Waite deck was introduced versus the Thoth, I am thinking that mentioning Hebrew letter correlations and the original numbering of the trumps (which I mentioned) might cause some more confusion. Those latter day occult attributions are not a part of the original decks, as far as we know. I would not want someone to walk away from this thread thinking that they were. Are they a part of the Waite deck? Yes. No one has told LRichard not to discuss what he is discussing, all I said was that we should be careful to make that clear.... I am not sure what the issue is here.

I was only trying to explain why the Waite and Crowley decks are numbered differently. I don't know how to explain that without at least touching on the esoteric significance. Otherwise, there would be no reason whatsoever for the Waite and Crowley decks to have different numbering. It is not my fault that the basis for both decks happens to be the Tarot de Marseille. Waite and Crowley (and many others) happened to find a depth in the TdM which is not superficially apparent, probably not even to its originators. It was, after all, originally just a game deck.

LRichard,

What you said was fine and very informative, all I was saying was let's go slow here, because this is some heavy duty tarot information, and I think it would be very easy to come away from this kind of discussion with the idea that the Hebrew letter attributions and the Tree of Life were a part of the early decks. A part of the Waite deck, yes, the other decks that we have mentioned, no. I felt the need to mention that this stuff was not a part of the early decks because I was the one to mention the early decks.

I see your point, Prudence. It is good for people to be reminded that the earlier historical decks do not have the esoteric "overlays" of the RWS or Thoth.

However, this is the RWS forum. Always including a disclaimer (regarding other decks) in posts to this forum is inconvenient, superfluous, and can interrupt the flow of thought as well as the communication thereof. Moreover, relatively few people use the TdM, and those who do should already be aware that the historical decks were conceived before the Golden Dawn era.