Reversals with Thoth deck

Orione

As Babalon Jones (great name!) says, the backs already reveal which cards are upside down when shuffling. Usually reversed cards have a more negative message in readings, so if you are a person with a sunny disposition, you are more likely to 'correct' the cards before a reading. (Yes. Been there, done that, got the upside-down t-shirt...)

But I think mostly all of the cards in the Thoth deck - depending on their context in the reading - can be negative or possitive or both. (Some a little more so then others - I'm looking at you, nine of swords - but still.) I find the Thoth is more 'flexible' than the other decks in that sense. Cards that are not reversed can still mean their 'reversed self' in certain contexts.

Lastly, I think that the initiation systems that this deck is associated with teach you about non-duality or more-possibilities-than-duality or however you want to phrase it. Speaking for myself: whenever I find myself caring about a card being either reversed or not, I stop my reading, because then I'm trying to force answers instead of letting the cards speak to me. Then I know what I want the cards to say, instead of actually listening to the cards.
 

Barleywine

As Babalon Jones (great name!) says, the backs already reveal which cards are upside down when shuffling. Usually reversed cards have a more negative message in readings, so if you are a person with a sunny disposition, you are more likely to 'correct' the cards before a reading. (Yes. Been there, done that, got the upside-down t-shirt...)

But I think mostly all of the cards in the Thoth deck - depending on their context in the reading - can be negative or possitive or both. (Some a little more so then others - I'm looking at you, nine of swords - but still.) I find the Thoth is more 'flexible' than the other decks in that sense. Cards that are not reversed can still mean their 'reversed self' in certain contexts.

Lastly, I think that the initiation systems that this deck is associated with teach you about non-duality or more-possibilities-than-duality or however you want to phrase it. Speaking for myself: whenever I find myself caring about a card being either reversed or not, I stop my reading, because then I'm trying to force answers instead of letting the cards speak to me. Then I know what I want the cards to say, instead of actually listening to the cards.

Interesting commentary. In my own use of reversals, I tend to see them as a "multiplicity" of interpretive options set against the relative "singularity" of the upright meaning. It's probably part of the mental calisthenics needed to "detoxify" them of their misleading duality.
 

Michael Sternbach

The Thoth Companion by Snuffn seems only book which deals with reversal meanings. Because I refer to this book sometimes, I do use Thoth reversal meanings. When spreading / choosing cards, I close my eyes not to see the backs.

Another Thoth book that includes reversals is P. C. Tarantino's Tarot for the New Aeon.

I don't use reversals though with any deck. For me, elemental dignities pretty much take their place, but I also look at those in more of an intuitive than a rigidly calculating manner.
 

Barleywine

Another Thoth book that includes reversals is P. C. Tarantino's Tarot for the New Aeon.

I don't use reversals though with any deck. For me, elemental dignities pretty much take their place, but I also look at those in more of an intuitive than a rigidly calculating manner.

I generally see elemental dignities as qualities rather than quantities, so I'm not quite clear on how one calculates them, rigidly or otherwise. A Wand card with a Cup on either side would be "ill-dignified," but with a Cup on one side and another Wand on the opposite side it would be less functionally challenged and more "mixed" in its expression, at least as I understand it. I've only seen the concept used in three-card series where one card is the focus card and the other two are modifiers. For larger series I use the concept of "preponderences" or - to much greater effect, actually - shortfalls (or "voids") of a given element. I do this more expressively than mechanically: four Cups in a spread might outrank six Wands if the specific Cup cards are of greater potency and significance to the subject. Matter of fact, the concept of preponderences filched from astrology was all I ever used in the distant past (ca. 1972). Having spent some time with traditional astrology, I now like the idea of humours and how they expand the elemental palette.
 

foolMoon

Another Thoth book that includes reversals is P. C. Tarantino's Tarot for the New Aeon.

I don't use reversals though with any deck. For me, elemental dignities pretty much take their place, but I also look at those in more of an intuitive than a rigidly calculating manner.

Sometimes I don't use reversals. Like you, I use elemental dignities, looking at other cards around and intuition. I don't have the Tarantino's book yet.
 

Michael Sternbach

I generally see elemental dignities as qualities rather than quantities, so I'm not quite clear on how one calculates them, rigidly or otherwise. A Wand card with a Cup on either side would be "ill-dignified," but with a Cup on one side and another Wand on the opposite side it would be less functionally challenged and more "mixed" in its expression, at least as I understand it. I've only seen the concept used in three-card series where one card is the focus card and the other two are modifiers. For larger series I use the concept of "preponderences" or - to much greater effect, actually - shortfalls (or "voids") of a given element. I do this more expressively than mechanically: four Cups in a spread might outrank six Wands if the specific Cup cards are of greater potency and significance to the subject. Matter of fact, the concept of preponderences filched from astrology was all I ever used in the distant past (ca. 1972). Having spent some time with traditional astrology, I now like the idea of humours and how they expand the elemental palette.

However, if the spread in question would be on a business matter, a preponderance of Disks probably wouldn't imply an imbalance; however, it well might, if the spread was on a romantic love relationship.

Your reference to the humours is interesting. How do you use this concept in readings?
 

Barleywine

However, if the spread in question would be on a business matter, a preponderance of Disks probably wouldn't imply an imbalance; however, it well might, if the spread was on a romantic love relationship.

Your reference to the humours is interesting. How do you use this concept in readings?

So far I've used them more for timing than for interpretive shading in a reading. The attached link shows my logic.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=228968&highlight=Timing&page=2

A while back I created a diagram that attempted to pinpoint the planets spatially between the four extremes. I haven't looked at it recently and it may not reflect my current understanding (but it's probably close). The elemental quality of a sign could probably be tweaked by the humour of its associated planet and then applied to the symbolic characteristics of the card in question to create a more complex "profile" of its influence. See attached.

Here's a hypothetical example, off the top of my head:

The 8 of Disks is Sun in Virgo, so Fire and Earth. It would be seen simply as "earthy" by elemental dignity, but the Sun is choleric, so "dessicated earth" might be a more precise and apt connotation; bringing in the "applied intellect" quality of Mercury, it suggests the constructive but obdurate nature of "brick" (maybe "kiln-dried"). This isn't out-of-line with many interpretations of the 8 of Disks/Pentacles, even Crowley's.
 

Attachments

  • Planetary Humours.jpg
    Planetary Humours.jpg
    24.6 KB · Views: 346

Orione

That diagram is just beautiful and I can follow the logic of your placements of planets really well.

I've just been thinking that the MOIST on the outer layer (furthest away from temperate) should perhaps read WET :-D and 'dry' on the middle layer should also read something else, but my limited knowledge of the English language can't help me there.

Anyway: an inspiring diagram & way of thinking! Thank you for sharing.
 

Barleywine

That diagram is just beautiful and I can follow the logic of your placements of planets really well.

I've just been thinking that the MOIST on the outer layer (furthest away from temperate) should perhaps read WET :-D and 'dry' on the middle layer should also read something else, but my limited knowledge of the English language can't help me there.

Anyway: an inspiring diagram & way of thinking! Thank you for sharing.

Thanks! The diamond arrangement was pre-existing and the titles of the humours are historical, although I think I conjured up the intermediate designations to some extent when I stuck the planets into the model.