"The direct descendant" of the Thoth?

Abrac

Looks like the book could be interesting; but I refuse to waste my time scrolling through it to find out. Maybe that was their intent, to weed out all but those with the most time on their hands. :)
 

Terrapin

Hope you don't mind hearing from a Thoth lighter-weight/intermediate user like myself. I've had the MAT deck for a couple of months now and have read through almost all of the on-line book once. What a deck to sink your teeth into for those who are so inclined! Really interesting information, and, I believe they are constantly adding new thoughts and insights to it. I too am not familiar with the I-Ching and get lost when they try to explain their system of how they systematically over-laid in onto the Tree of Life. Yet its a nice jumping off point for learning more about this older divination system. And yes, they've switched Strength and Justice, but have also really horsed around too with placements of numerous other Majors on the Tree as well as changing the Hebrew letter associations. I find it good food for thought and shakes up a bit what I already have learned, but I've enjoyed that. I certainly don't agree with some of these changes, the Thoth/GD placements make more sense to me at this point, but it's a heck of a lot of fun to contemplate when I'm in the mood for that sort of ruminating :)

On the pomposity issue, yes it's certainly there, but I've a sense that these 2 creators have lots of respect for Crowley and Lady H's deck. Sarcastic and irreverent for sure (downright laugh out loud funny at times), but at times the on-line commentary is quite affectionate and in awe towards the Thoth and its creators. As folks here have defended the Thoth against those resisting to use it because of Crowley's "evil deeds" ie, because the deck stands apart from all of those Crowley antics and 'here says'--takes on a life of its own so to speak, same with the MAT I believe.

I have a good basic understanding of the underpinnings of the Thoth and I do feel it meets you where you are in your level of understanding. I think the MAT could be very much the same for all who want to give it a chance and challenge & stretch their tarot muscles. It's fun and some of the cards are really, really beautiful (eg. 7 of Pentacles, 2 of Pentacles, 6 and 3 of Blades, 7 and 2 of Staves to name a few of my favorites.)

Could it ever replace or truly update the Thoth for me? Seriously doubt it, but it's really impressive on many levels and I highly recommend it to anyone looking for something to hunker down with this winter. Gives great reads too.
 

Spiffo

I wonder why there needs to be a descendant of the Crowley/Harris Thoth, but for me, if there is one, it is the Tabula Mundi.
 

Zephyros

I wonder why there needs to be a descendant of the Crowley/Harris Thoth, but for me, if there is one, it is the Tabula Mundi.

I'm not sure about that. The TM is as Thelemic a deck as anything, no doubt, but it does not purport to develop Crowley's occult ideas, merely present them in different ways. The MAT, on the other hand, takes those ideas and changes and adapts them, in the same way the original GD itself took older ideas and made something new with them.

The TM seems to have updated the Thoth's ideas but not deviated from them in any radical way. I think that's a good thing.
 

Spiffo

The TM seems to have updated the Thoth's ideas but not deviated from them in any radical way. I think that's a good thing.

You make two good points.
 

Naomi Ningishzidda

I looked at the two reviews - they are not by members of The Abrahadabra Institute. One is by someone who has been closely following m1thr0s' work for years, he is a PhD and is very familiar with Crowley's work from within the OTO.

What I find funny is both of the reviews insist the back is not reversible. It is perfectly symmetrical and reversible.

Crowley spent a lot of time breaking rules, radically changing occult society and occult praxis. This was all with an eye on The Great Work, and he always advised students to think for themselves and not get stuck in dogma. He was a chaos magician's chaos magician.

In the conversation of tarot, one must present their case rationally for why this or that should not have been done, and not merely whine about it. If you don't understand why something should not have been changed, how does one possibly justify their complaints?

Keeping things the same for the sake of tradition is very bad for any society. The occult and tarot societies are no different, a stale conversation is a bad conversation that will quickly die out. Progressive and thoughtful change is always a boon. The fear of change itself comes from the false presumption that completion and perfect knowledge has been achieved somehow. It certainly has not for mankind. So toy with the old sweetness of the Victorian era if you must, I will fight with my brothers at the edge of the progressing new aeon.
 

Zephyros

Nice to have you with us again. So, what can you tell us about your creation?
 

Abrac

Nothing wrong with change per se. I do think it's a little lame though that they felt it was necessary to market their product as a descendent of the Crowley Thoth and one that corrected some of his errors. If it's so great, why not just let it stand on it's own? Time will be the judge of its greatness. Otherwise it just looks like they're trying to exploit Crowley for a quick buck.
 

Naomi Ningishzidda

Associating anything with Aleister Crowley is one of the most toxic things you can do in retail, even in the metaphysical/occult communities. It wouldn't have been fair for us to distance ourselves from Crowley and his work, as it is quite filial to him and owes a great deal both to him and the people of The Golden Dawn he was inspired by. Just as Crowley was progressively building on the knowledge that had been gathered up until his time, m1thr0s and I built on the knowledge that had been gathered up until our time. His detractors in London are all dead now, and what is left is a document that has met with someone willing to pick up where he left off. This is how it has always been done, we are leaving messages for a future voice who may not even be born yet. As collectors or serious occultists you will all do your job by propagating it or criticizing it. You will do so on its own level however, if you are to assail it effectively at all. There are few familiar enough with Crowley's larger body of work or the Thoth and its origins to even hold a rational discussion about it. Until that happens whining is just whining, and it is a sound we're both quite used to in other regards such as the Abrahadabra grid proofs or whatever other changes people fear.


Not that there's anything wrong with money or tarot publishers making money, but I have to wonder if you're aware of how one goes about making money at all, since day trading would be better pay than $69 per year pay it amounts to. I wouldn't call that a quick buck or even very business like, I'd call it a hobby since each painting took a minimum of 10 hours to complete, at student artist rates per card that' $24,960. If every pack sells that's a profit of $9000 not enough to pay a decent artist or even cover the cost of my classical atelier training. It's just enough to reprint the pack if we choose to go through the trouble at all. That's even before we take into considering time put in by m1thr0s himself which met or exceeded my own part and reflects a history of over 45 years of knowledge and resource gathering as a professional occultist. I would like to see The Abrahadabra Institute make a lot of money, because more money means better equipment and an actual laboratory which would be quite helpful, but when given the choice between urgent research and merely making money it is all too easy to get lost in making money where the work suffers and is forgotten about.

If I wanted to *sell* the deck to sell it for its own sake, history has shown it is much more profitable to claim it was received through space aliens, angels or some ancient god from beyond the stars or other such fantasies. People are not afraid of that.
 

mithros

Nice.
But for my taste there is a little bit too much cgi. Also I am not well versed in the I Ching, on which the mutational alchemy tarot seems to rely much.

Nevertheless, I wonder about the attributions of court cards to "diamond paths". There is a short explanation at the bottom of http://abrahadabra.com/mutational-alchemy-tarot-book/introduction/
I have never heard about the "Hidden Diamond Sutra" or some concept of "hidden paths". can someone please elaborate?
Don't rely on snooty responses like the one ravenest has given you regarding hidden paths. These are NOT paths that someone has made up out of thin air but constitute all the paths which are implied but never shown in their entirety. There are exactly 16 such paths and there will always be 16 *hidden paths* to any tree presenting us with 10 sephiroth and 22 paths. It is called a *diamond* because of its shape and classes as a sutra according to its meditative virtue. There happen to be 16 binary tetragrams as well as 16 geomantic characters which is an important fact not covered in AC's work ANYWHERE in ANY of his written works. We have corrected that oversight along with many others in our own deck...a deck which builds on the best of occult tradition up to his time and is directly attuned to his expectations of serious occult students moving forward in time...m1thr0s