"The direct descendant" of the Thoth?

Snaut

First, welcome Naomi, welcome mithros.

mithros said:
Don't rely on snooty responses like the one ravenest has given you regarding hidden paths. These are NOT paths that someone has made up out of thin air but constitute all the paths which are implied but never shown in their entirety. There are exactly 16 such paths and there will always be 16 *hidden paths* to any tree presenting us with 10 sephiroth and 22 paths. It is called a *diamond* because of its shape and classes as a sutra according to its meditative virtue. There happen to be 16 binary tetragrams as well as 16 geomantic characters which is an important fact not covered in AC's work ANYWHERE in ANY of his written works. We have corrected that oversight along with many others in our own deck...a deck which builds on the best of occult tradition up to his time and is directly attuned to his expectations of serious occult students moving forward in time...m1thr0s

Nice way to see it. So if I understand correctly you have a second type of paths which correspond to the geomantic figures and the binary tetragrams.


What I do not understand is that you say your deck is based on the Thoth. I do not really see this connection. You have the hidden paths which are not mentioned (or even unknown) by Crowley. You have Strength instead of Crowleys Lust.

The only Thothy things I see directly is the tzaddi/emperor switch. And Art/Aeon/Universe. Further the balanced sexes in the court card. But does this suffice to make the deck "thothy"?

You said the following:
Naomi Ningishzidda said:
Associating anything with Aleister Crowley is one of the most toxic things you can do in retail, even in the metaphysical/occult communities. It wouldn't have been fair for us to distance ourselves from Crowley and his work, as it is quite filial to him and owes a great deal both to him and the people of The Golden Dawn he was inspired by. Just as Crowley was progressively building on the knowledge that had been gathered up until his time, m1thr0s and I built on the knowledge that had been gathered up until our time. His detractors in London are all dead now, and what is left is a document that has met with someone willing to pick up where he left off. This is how it has always been done, we are leaving messages for a future voice who may not even be born yet.
But with the same argumentation you could say that the deck is a golden dawn deck.

Nevertheless I have great respect for your work.
 

earthair

Well, on that level, I guess one would not see a problem.

Do you realise that there are 22 letters in Hebrew and each one is attributed to the 22 paths on the Tree of Life ?

Omg you really have a low opinion of me :joke::joke::joke: :rolleyes:

So, back to what I was hinting at .... are you going to 'make up' new Hebrew letters , allocate a letter to more than one path , or just make up some other paths and when the question of what letter corresponds with it declare ; "Doesn't matter. " ?

Why do you need to attribute letters to everything? The neat thing MAT does is to use the court cards. Think of the angle and shape of the HDS as a letter if you really like that sort of thing?
 

Abrac

The Tree and all its paths represent aspects of Mind and don't exist in physical form. In reality they're all invisible.
 

ravenest

Omg you really have a low opinion of me :joke::joke::joke: :rolleyes:



Why do you need to attribute letters to everything? The neat thing MAT does is to use the court cards. Think of the angle and shape of the HDS as a letter if you really like that sort of thing?

Because the whole concept started that way with Levi.

The court cards already got an 'attribution' from Crowley to hexagrams . I dont see what use attributing them to some postulated non-existent paths on the ToL does ..... but sure, people make up all sorts of 'new and innovative stuff' and then slap them on a tarot deck ... but I am talking here on the subject matter , that this deck is supposedly ... or it is postulated that it is "The direct descendant of the Thoth."

IMO .... a bit of name dropping , a claim, some type of reference about the OTO and a thought that ' that sephiroth is connected to that one by a line but this one isnt, so I will add a line ... here and here and here . .... (plus what Snaut and others have pointed out ) ..... nope !

What is a 'direct descendant' in tarot decks anyway ?
 

ravenest

The Tree and all its paths represent aspects of Mind and don't exist in physical form. In reality they're all invisible.

Well, of course they are . But we can draw a scheme to represent 'invisible' (I would say 'ideal' is a better term - as opposed to 'real' ... that is - a concept and not a tangible thing ) things.

The thing here is ; in the scheme (ToL) that represents 'invisible things' and 'invisible paths', there are 'invisible paths' not shown on the scheme that represents invisible paths .

I think it must be just about anyone's 'kindergarten experience' with the ToL ; "Hey! How come those Sephiroth have paths between them and the others dont? " and played with that.

The internet is full of such images and diagrams , 'innovatively ' adding them to the ToL.
 

mithros

First, welcome Naomi, welcome mithros.



Nice way to see it. So if I understand correctly you have a second type of paths which correspond to the geomantic figures and the binary tetragrams.


What I do not understand is that you say your deck is based on the Thoth. I do not really see this connection. You have the hidden paths which are not mentioned (or even unknown) by Crowley. You have Strength instead of Crowleys Lust.

The only Thothy things I see directly is the tzaddi/emperor switch. And Art/Aeon/Universe. Further the balanced sexes in the court card. But does this suffice to make the deck "thothy"?

You said the following:

But with the same argumentation you could say that the deck is a golden dawn deck.

Nevertheless I have great respect for your work.
I don't recall having said that the MA deck was "based" on the Thoth deck so I'd be interested in where you found that quotation. But there are a number of precedents in Thoth that have been taken up and expanded upon in the MA deck, like the association of I Ching hexagrams most notably. We are discussing taking questions from here and elsewhere and moving them to our own forum at abrahadababra.com where we can answer them in greater depth. Let us know if that interests you here and we can include this thread in that process.
 

earthair

I don't recall having said that the MA deck was "based" on the Thoth deck so I'd be interested in where you found that quotation. But there are a number of precedents in Thoth that have been taken up and expanded upon in the MA deck, like the association of I Ching hexagrams most notably. We are discussing taking questions from here and elsewhere and moving them to our own forum at abrahadababra.com where we can answer them in greater depth. Let us know if that interests you here and we can include this thread in that process.

I think we are using 'based' and 'descended from' [from your introduction quoted in my OP at the top of this thread] as meaning so close to the same thing that they become the same thing?! And you have quoted the 8 of discs from Thoth in your 8 of Pents. :cool2:
 

Spiffo

Curiosity got me so I was going to order but the postage, albeit to a non-USA destination is almost as much as the deck, but free to all domestic orders. I know postage sucks and it's. Or their fault, but FFS, double the price is just a bit much for me, at the moment.
 

Abrac

I made a diagram that shows the so-called Diamond Sutra with the "invisible paths." A similar diagram is in the book, but not labeled as far as I can find. I posted it for those who may not have looked at the book, and to stimulate discussion. It's really just an alternative method for linking up the Sephiroth. The Diamond Sutra is included on each of the 16 Court Cards with its corresponding path highlighted. I'm not sure my numbering is right, I just numbered them so it would be easier to see the 16 paths.

It does seem like a creative way of incorporating the Courts into the Tree, but I find the deck very unappealing overall. The colors are garish and all the additional symbols in the corners of the cards detract from the main image. Personally, I'd like it better if they weren't on the cards but only in the book.

Invisible Paths
 

ravenest

.... well, now you have clearly shown them in a diagram, and if they are shown on each court .... now we are going to have to think up new names for them .

Formally invisible paths ? ' Not the Tree of Life ' pathways ? .... please dont tell me ; 'diamond sutra' pathways.

That would piss some Buddhists off .... even more !

Ummm ... just a reminder guys ;


sutra
ˈsuːtrə/Submit
noun
1.
a rule or aphorism in Sanskrit literature, or a set of these on grammar or Hindu law or philosophy.
2.
a Buddhist or Jainist scripture


and actually, for those that haven't realised ;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Sutra


A diamond sutra in a Thoth descendent ? What will they think of next ?