The Moon: Association with Pisces?

Thirteen

Greetings. I'm posting this question in a few of the history forums in hopes of finding an answer. There's a discussion about the Moon in the Using Tarot Cards forum and there is the usual confusion over the assignment of Pisces to that card. It doesn't make sense to new tarot readers that it should be Pisces rather than the Moon (planet) or Cancer (zodiac sign ruled by the Moon). I was wondering if any one could explain when this assignment was made, by whom and the rational behind it. I have asked in the Rider-Waite forum, and the experts there have no solid information. They suggested that the assignment is likely more Golden Dawn or perhaps even farther back than that.

I'd like to find out what I can about this strange assignment, so that I can explain to tarot newbies why the Moon isn't represented by the moon (as the Sun is represented by the sun), or even by a zodiac sign that has, as its planet, the moon. It's represented by a sign affiliated with Neptune.

Another question: Given that the Moon is astrologically Pisces, should the Moon be viewed metaphorically as "the Moon": nighttime illumination, lunar mother-goddess, waxing/waning, running under the moon, etc. OR, should the card really be labeled "nighttime" or "the dreamer"? Isn't the High Priestess, assigned the Moon, more in line with typical Moon tropes? If the Moon card is represented by a zodiac sign which is not directly or indirectly related to the moon (only tangentially in being a water sign), how do we relate it literally/metaphysically/mythologically to the Moon?

Any help would be very much appreciated.
 

ravenest

'The Night' may be a better name. But in the Thoth 'midnight' is more accurate and the association is to Keph-ra , an aspect of the Sun. This 'station of the Sun' or 'aspect of the journey' relates more to Pisces than the Moon does - from Babylon; two fish ( Pisces / beetle) push ashore, from the ocean ( 'underworld' / 'unconscious' / Duaat ) a giant egg (the Sun) , from which emerged a goddess and her son Ichthys , who dies and is reborn annually (Osiris)

But that is more of an after thought than finding the 'original' association for you. The same goes for other justifications made through extending links of planetary rulers to find associations, or mythological aspects, considerations of the Moon's dual nature, kabbalistic associations, etc. - they all sorta fit, but are an afterthought ... after the association is set up in the first place.

I am not into tarot history, as such, it could be in Levi or GD somewhere mentioned as an aside ?
 

Babalon Jones

Another question: Given that the Moon is astrologically Pisces, should the Moon be viewed metaphorically as "the Moon": nighttime illumination, lunar mother-goddess, waxing/waning, running under the moon, etc. OR, should the card really be labeled "nighttime" or "the dreamer"? Isn't the High Priestess, assigned the Moon, more in line with typical Moon tropes? If the Moon card is represented by a zodiac sign which is not directly or indirectly related to the moon (only tangentially in being a water sign), how do we relate it literally/metaphysically/mythologically to the Moon?

Any help would be very much appreciated.
Maybe someone else can answer the history part ie did this originate with GD or is it older - that isn't really my forte. But I can give some thoughts on the metaphorical part.

The energies of the Moon are described as being in flux, and actually the Golden Dawn called the card something like "Ruler of the Flux and Reflux" which speaks to the wavering energies, as the Moon is constantly changing as it passes throigh it's phases. It is fitting then that symbolically the Moon card was set to Pisces - the last sign and the last of the mutable signs - and thus the most mutable of the mutables, astrologically. Pisces is known for its flow and nebulous nature, much like the changeable lunar force. It can be "running under the moon" in a sense of wildness, and unconscious or subconscious emanations. After all, the Moon card is attributed to the Hebrew letter Qoph, meaning the "back of the head" or the reptilian part of the brain.

And it is sort of a back door to the Sun, the card assigned the letter meaning the front and central of the head (Resh) which is why the scarab is often shown, the journey through the dark of midnight.

But also, the lunar goddesses are often thought of as triune in nature as they too go thru phases of new, full and waning or maiden, mother and crone. So in the tarot one could say that Pisces, and the tarot card called Moon, represents the waning Moon or most of all, the dark of the Moon, and the Hecate nature, the dark feminine force and witchcraft. The Priestess then card of the Moon in tarot, is then the new Moon, more of a Diana or Artemis figure, the pure Virgin or Holy Wisdom. And though it is not mentioned much anywhere, the Mother or Moon in fullness is obviously the Empress. Though that is the card officially of Venus it almost always has lunar symbolism.
 

Richard

Greetings. I'm posting this question in a few of the history forums in hopes of finding an answer. There's a discussion about the Moon in the Using Tarot Cards forum and there is the usual confusion over the assignment of Pisces to that card. It doesn't make sense to new tarot readers that it should be Pisces rather than the Moon (planet) or Cancer (zodiac sign ruled by the Moon). I was wondering if any one could explain when this assignment was made, by whom and the rational behind it. I have asked in the Rider-Waite forum, and the experts there have no solid information. They suggested that the assignment is likely more Golden Dawn or perhaps even farther back than that.......

Actually, it goes back to the Sefer Yetzirah by way of the Golden Dawn. I can explain it, but it involves some technical details about the Hebrew alphabet which probably wouldn't convince anyone of anything, and it might even invite ridicule.
 

Thirteen

'The Night' may be a better name. But in the Thoth 'midnight' is more accurate and the association is to Keph-ra , an aspect of the Sun. This 'station of the Sun' or 'aspect of the journey' relates more to Pisces than the Moon does - from Babylon; two fish ( Pisces / beetle) push ashore, from the ocean ( 'underworld' / 'unconscious' / Duaat ) a giant egg (the Sun) , from which emerged a goddess and her son Ichthys , who dies and is reborn annually (Osiris)
That's a terrific myth! Thanks for that. I will see if the History & Development folk have an answer for the when of this assignment, but myths like these certainly help when trying to explain the Moon-Pisces connection. And it does seem like the name of the card, that moon in the sky, is more a way of saying "it's nighttime" and *that* is the influence of this card, rather than of saying "here is the card's planetary influence."
..thus the most mutable of the mutables, astrologically. Pisces is known for its flow and nebulous nature, much like the changeable lunar force. It can be "running under the moon" in a sense of wildness, and unconscious or subconscious emanations. After all, the Moon card is attributed to the Hebrew letter Qoph, meaning the "back of the head" or the reptilian part of the brain.

And it is sort of a back door to the Sun, the card assigned the letter meaning the front and central of the head (Resh) which is why the scarab is often shown, the journey through the dark of midnight.
AH! Yes, I totally forgot that Pisces is a mutable sign, an you're spot on--water sign would make Pisces the most mutable of mutable so. Wow. That really helps to understand. And there is that scarab connection again. It's not about the moon illuminating a landscape so much as it is about the moon being pushed through the dark, acting as an indication of nighttime hours passing till day returns. This also puts Waite's crayfish into perspective. Would it be accurate to say that the crayfish is Waite's scarab/dung beetle?
But also, the lunar goddesses are often thought of as triune in nature as they too go thru phases of new, full and waning or maiden, mother and crone. So in the tarot one could say that Pisces, and the tarot card called Moon, represents the waning Moon or most of all, the dark of the Moon, and the Hecate nature, the dark feminine force and witchcraft. The Priestess then card of the Moon in tarot, is then the new Moon, more of a Diana or Artemis figure, the pure Virgin or Holy Wisdom. And though it is not mentioned much anywhere, the Mother or Moon in fullness is obviously the Empress. Though that is the card officially of Venus it almost always has lunar symbolism.
I see! I, myself, had always connected Hecate to the HPS along with Artemis, but then, she's a very confusing amalgamation of mythical figures. On the one hand, virginal Artemis/Diana, but also the vigin mother idea (holy womb) of an Isis--and possibly Persephone being both spring maiden and underworld wife. She is represented by the Moon, but is not all three aspects of the moon goddess per se (maiden, mother, crone). You are right that even as "virgin mom" she is still in maiden guise. The waxing crescent of the moon. With the Empress being the full moon + Venus, as Venus is usually behind the "mom" archtype.

Leaving us the waning/dark moon which, as you say, is missing. Of course, the problem is that the Moon card most often shows a full moon and no suggestion of the waning or dark moon. I think new readers would understand that Pisces connection better if it could be somehow pictured as the dark moon--connecting to being underwater, visually in the dark and following primal instincts.

Thanks again to you and ravenest. All this is hugely helpful!
 

Thirteen

Let's defy ridicule!

Actually, it goes back to the Sefer Yetzirah by way of the Golden Dawn. I can explain it, but it involves some technical details about the Hebrew alphabet which probably wouldn't convince anyone of anything, and it might even invite ridicule.
I promise not to ridicule you too much :D By all means, please explain; I'm totally interested and don't know enough to mock. However, as I am a novice when it comes to the Hebrew alphabet and its connection to tarot, you will need to take baby steps. :)
 

Babalon Jones

Leaving us the waning/dark moon which, as you say, is missing. Of course, the problem is that the Moon card most often shows a full moon and no suggestion of the waning or dark moon. I think new readers would understand that Pisces connection better if it could be somehow pictured as the dark moon--connecting to being underwater, visually in the dark and following primal instincts.

Thanks again to you and ravenest. All this is hugely helpful!

I can say that is because drawing a dark moon is more difficult. Everyone wants to see the actual lunar light, and I don't blame them. Otherwise, you see a dark circle. So better to show waning or something symbolic.
Here are two attempts to show the dark phase without a black circle in the actual Moon card of the Major arcana while still showing dark lunarness, and one minor card that shows an attempt to draw the dark phase. Since that card the four of cups has four moon phases you can see how visually the dark phase is less interesting and perhaps not "majestic" and evocative enough for the actual trump called the Moon. Because the Moon's major function is reflection so the only way to show that is through light. Even if it is just the light of what they call Earthshine. If it were completely dark there would be nothing to draw!
 

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Thirteen

Ah-hah! Well, that cleared it up the how/why quite nicely. Thank you so much for that link.

It doesn't quite solve my problem—which is to make the connection easier for beginners to see, understand, and feel comfortable about. :) It's all well and good explaining this as the "why" but I think the card still needs more of a connection to Pisces. However, all this discussion here really is helping with that.
I can say that is because drawing a dark moon is more difficult. Everyone wants to see the actual lunar light, and I don't blame them. Otherwise, you see a dark circle. So better to show waning or something symbolic....Because the Moon's major function is reflection so the only way to show that is through light. Even if it is just the light of what they call Earthshine. If it were completely dark there would be nothing to draw!
You're quite right. But perhaps it would be of more use to show, as in Waite (kinda), what's going on under the moon than make the moon the central feature. This might clue readers that the card is more about the wild night-life under the moon, than the moon itself.

And those cards are simply GORGEOUS! Thank you so much for those examples. I do think they get the reader's mind off the Moon card being about the Moon rather than being about the dark-of-the-moon (unconscious) aspect of the card. And, thus, make it easier to explain the Pisces connection. They certainly do this more effectively than cards where all that is pictured is a big, bright, full moon. That "moon for AT" card is just stunning! I love the use of the phrenology head to indicate the "back of the head" meaning. Brilliant.
 

Nemia

The dark moon doesn't show up high on the night sky. It's close to the sun and appears on the day sky (where we don't see it). The most "nightly" moon is the full moon. Waning and waxing moon appear closer to the sun, too. Many depictions get it wrong and show a thin moon in the middle of the night.

But half of the moon is always lit, and half in the dark. It just depends which half is turned towards us. Whenever we see the moon, we see a celestial body half lit and half in the dark. I always saw in the RWS depiction the waxing moon with the inset profile and earth shine - just when the moon starts being visible again after new moon, and appears after the sun has set. This is the closest we as humans can get to seeing a new moon.

And I've been calling the Moon card "Night" for quite some time (just like I call Death "Compost"). Makes it clearer to me.