The Moon: Association with Pisces?

Babalon Jones

Once again, awesome card! I don't think I'd have had to ask about the Pisces-Moon connection if this had been the card image rather than the usual Rider-Waite or even Thoth for that matter. I'd probably have come here asking for help with the iconography, but I think it'd be easier to point out that mermaid and dark moon and say "that's more Pisces than Cancer..."

Though I think they'd still be confused by the claw arms. Most people can't tell crayfish claws from crab claws.

And I very much love the bat wings on the Mermaid. It absolutely fits. It's hard to tell if those are fish about the moon, and I'd never have known that was a jackal-own if you hadn't said, but I appreciate the owl as emphasizing the night-bird aspect.

What's up with the hand?

Most people can't tell the difference between crayfish, crab and lobster and some even think they are actually red (only when cooked, though they often have red markings) Lon Milo Duquette said of cards with these creatures that it makes him think of melted butter :joke: (Lon is a Cancer, they love food!)

When I was a kid I used to catch crayfish in a lake near where I live, and I am in New England so they are around here. Still can catch them actually but I don't. I like seeing the little buggers as it means the water ecology is healthy. They had disappeared for a few years but are back now. Gotta be quick to catch them though - and they swim both forwards and backwards! Which makes them hard to catch! Sort of like the Pisces fish swimming in both directions. They live in the dark crevasses under and around rock piles in the shallows.

Well the palmistry hand which is making the sign for (or against really) witchcraft (or cuckoldry, or hook-em-horns depending on where you live haha; it is really just the witchcraft thing) is actually marked with the parts of the hand for the Moon and for Neptune. In the Book of Thoth Crowley speaks of this card in terms of witchcraft and sorcery, Tabu.

Book of Thoth said:
The Eighteenth Trump is attributed to the letter Qoph, which represents Pisces in the Zodiac. It is called the Moon.
Pisces is the last of the Signs; it represents the last stage of winter. It might be called the Gateway of Resurrection (the letter Qoph means the back of the head, and is connected with the potencies of the cerebellum). In the system of the old Aeon, the resurrection of the Sun was not only from winter, but from night; and this card represents midnight.

“There is a budding morrow in midnight”, wrote Keats. For this reason there appears at the bottom of the card, underneath the water which is tinged with graphs of abomination, the sacred Beetle, the Egyptian Khephra, bearing in his mandibles the Solar Disk. It is this Beetle that bears the Sun in his Silence through the darkness of Night and the bitterness of Winter.
Above the surface of the water is a sinister and forbidding landscape. We see a path or stream, serum tinged with blood, which flows from a gap between two barren mountains; nine drops of impure blood, drop-shaped like Yods, fall upon it from the Moon.

The Moon, partaking as she does of the highest and the lowest, and filling all the space between, is the most universal of the Planets. In her higher aspect, she occupies the place of the Link between the human and divine, as shown in Atu II. In this Trump, her lowest avatar, she joins the earthy sphere of Netzach with Malkuth, the culmination in matter of all superior forms. This is the waning moon, the moon of witchcraft and abominable deeds. She is the poisoned darkness which is the condition of the rebirth of light.


This path is guarded by Tabu. She is uncleanliness and sorcery. Upon the hills are the black towers of nameless mystery, of horror and of fear. All prejudice, all superstition, dead tradition - and ancestral loathing, all combine to darken her face before the eyes of men. It needs unconquerable courage to begin to tread this path. Here is a weird, deceptive life. The fiery sense is baulked. The moon has no air. The knight upon this quest has to rely on the three lower senses: touch, taste and smell. [See the Book of Lies Cap.pß, Bortsch.] Such light as there may be is deadlier than darkness, and the silence is wounded by the howling of wild beasts.

To what god shall we appeal for aid? It is Anubis, the watcher in the twilight, the god that stands upon the threshold, the jackal god of Khem, who stands in double form between the Ways. At his feet, on watch, wait the jackals themselves, to devour the carcasses of those who have not seen Him, or who have not known His Name.

This is the threshold of life; this is the threshold of death. All is doubtful, all is mysterious, all is intoxicating. Not the benign, solar intoxication of Dionysus, but the dreadful madness of pernicious drugs; this is a drunkenness of sense, after the mind has been abolished by the venom of this Moon. This is that which is written of Abraham in the Book of the Beginning: “An horror of great darkness came upon him.” One is reminded of the mental echo of subconscious realization, of that supreme iniquity which mystics have constantly celebrated in their accounts of the Dark Night of the Soul. But the best men, the true men, do not consider the matter in such terms at all. Whatever horrors may afflict the soul, whatever abominations may excite the loathing of the heart, whatever terrors may assail the mind, the answer is the same at every stage: “How splendid is the Adventure!”


The hand, and the phrenology head (for Qoph "back of the head and the subconscious) are also two towers that the ship is passing between. These are stand ins for the "two towers" usually shown in every Moon card.

And symbolically they are of the witchy arts and divinations, and also a reference to what Crowley says above about the "three lower senses"

And also, they are meant to imply the Gates of Horn and Ivory, which show true dreams from false.

Book M: Liber Mundi said:
Stranger, dreams verily are baffling and unclear of meaning, and in no wise do they find fulfillment in all things for men. For two are the gates of shadowy dreams, and one is fashioned of horn and one of ivory. Those dreams that pass through the gate of sawn ivory deceive men, bringing words that find no fulfillment. But those that come forth through the gate of polished horn bring true issues to pass, when any mortal sees them. But in my case it was not from thence, methinks, that my strange dream came. ~ The Odyssey

The gates of horn and ivory are a literary device about distinguishing between true and false dreams, inspired by a play on the Greek words for horn and ivory, which were similar to words that meant to fulfill and to deceive. Here the gates of horn and ivory are depicted as pillars shaped like models of a hand and a head. The hand is marked with symbols of palmistry showing the lines of Neptune and the Moon. It is shown giving the horned hand of witchcraft, said to be a mudra to expel demons and ward off the evil eye. The head has the markings of phrenology.
 

ravenest

Just wanted to get back to this for a moment. From what I recall (and this one site backs me up: http://www.thealchemicaljourney.co.uk/uncategorized/cancer-the-crab-the-scarab), the scarab rolling its ball of dung was the Egyptian version of Cancer not Pisces. Because, of course, the beetle is armored like the crab, and moves across the sands like the crab. It also has little claw-like appendages to hold onto its "ball," again, like the crab.

This Thoth-based site also supports Cancer as being Kephera (the scarab god): http://www.corax.com/tarot/index.html?zodiac-signs

Is there a difference in tarot that the beetle gets equated with Pisces instead? And if so, why? Because, ironically, if the beetle is part of the Moon card, then we're back to asking why it doesn't get Cancer the crab as it's astrological sign instead of Pisces.

I will take the blame for this one. Its complex and I was trying to be simple.

Yes, Cancer sign and dung beetle do equate, as in the Dendera Zodiac, and Keph Ra represents Sun at midnight , as in a 'natural zodiac' Cancer is shown at IC ('midnight' )

BUT

The 'psychological state' when one is in 'the midnight position' has similarities to some psychological states 'Pisces type people' can find find themselves in. One very Piscean friend told me at times , she feels exactly like she is split in two ; two fish trying to swim in different directions, one wants to flee and go back the way it came, the other wants to be brave and forge ahead into the new territory. Our conversation came about due to a difficulty she was having about me ; one art of her was attracted, the other part wanted to run, she entered a weird 'dreamtime world' about me and started imagining all this very weird stuff about me and stopped communication and acted very strangely towards me. . . and other strange things that could well be described by the adverse influence said to be associated with the Moon card. (and yes, she could slip right into this, our friendship started as a mutual friend was helping her recover from a stint in the psyche ward .... I have 3 Piscean friends that had similar visits and 2 had a problem with drug addiction. )

But then the 'other fish' would tell her "Thats nuts ! You have known this person for years . there is no indication that they are anything like this.

[ Actually, she was great ! As she eventually sat down and talked the whole thing out with me ! :) - not only that, she was part of our group ( western mystery school, that used Tarot as one of its tools ) and was led towards recovery, no more meds or visits to psyche ward, and ended up having a career in 'event organisation' and ' grant applications' and helped get all these big cultural indigenous events happening all over the country. :thumbsup: ]


I hope I made that a bit clearer instead of muddier ?
 

ravenest

:) I like people that ask lots of relevant questions :thumbsup:

Yes. Excellent point. I was wondering about that as well. The myth isn't about the moon, but about nighttime and where the sun goes during the night.

Its still the Sun, its just dimmer and looks like the Moon because its night time :D

Okay, I will stop that.

So, yes, it works very well for the Moon car which is really the "Night" card.

But still the Moon card ... we cant escape that !

"First, there is a mountain
then there is no mountain
... then there is .

< hint >

" Caterpillar sheds his skin
to find a butterfly within ..."

.... If there is a strong connection between beetle/crab, however, a better one than beetle/fish, why put the beetle in the Moon card?

To represent that aspect of the 'psychological journey' ( at 'midnight' or the IC ) that is at that position , the same position cancer is in in the 'natural zodiac' .

I assume, the Thoth deck, focusing on such journeys, other than any 'exoteric' Moon associations, puts kephra there as the reminder. This is a Thelemites deck and and and also as a type of 'series of tracing boards' for the OTO initiate as well. From such perspectives, it is probably more easily comprehended ( Eg. I practised Liber Resh on and off for years, sometimes months at a time without a break ..... the dynamics of the 'IC position' , 'midnight' and the midnight 'meditation/invocation ' of Kephra .... nightly... and usually having to break one's sleep cycle to do it ( unless one is up late) ..... and me being stobly cancerian :D .... may have a lot to do with my takes on it ;)

And how about the twin Anubis in the Thoth deck's Moon? Don't those relate to Scorpio?

Why ? I dont relate them to Scorpio at all in this context. More 'guardians', like the watchtowers next to them. However Scorpio does relate to this PROCESS . One could speculate that the 3 water signs are all aspects of this process ( like the three cardinal, fixed and mutable aspects ) .

Even though there is much Cancer / IC / journey 'thorough the dark night of the soul' symbolism here, we cant deny Crowley's association also with the 'dark' Moon.

This could be because the Moon's cycles can be seen similar to the Sun's daily and yearly journey ie. Full Moon: Noon : Summer , No Moon : Midnight : Winter ... this certainly applies to processes used in biodynamic agriculture and is observable in nature.

So there could be some influence of both (or all three, including ; 'wintery symbolism' ) in and on the Moon card.

"....... the Voice
Of Dogs; You hide Your Forms in Shanks of Lions,
Your Ankle is Wolf-shaped, Fierce Dogs are dear
To You, wherefore they call You Hekate, "

( dog:wolf:jackal can equate symbolically, in some aspects)

" in a saffron veil arrayed, pleased with dark ghosts that wander through the shade; Perseis, solitary goddess, hail! The world’s key-bearer, "

(or 'ank bearer)

" Sown in the dusk and gathered in the gloom
Under the waning moon.
At midnight ..... "

" Here…where the band of Ocean breaks the road "

( the road is the path shown on the card, the ocean is a symbol of the unconscious through which the road travels ... expect 'breeches' ... this journey is not taken in a glass bubble, one needs to be affected by the energies of the realm, and navigate through it anyway, otherwise its an armchair exercise that will not actually make psychological change / achieve actual initiation. )

" Fear upon earth, and Fear in Hell,
And Black Fear in the Sky beyond fate

I hear the whining of Thy wolves! I hear
The howling of the hounds about Thy Form,
Who comest in the terror of Thy storm "

( more doggies )

https://bytheknotofnine.wordpress.com/2014/03/06/invocations-to-hekate/


:confused: What I'm saying is, having given the Moon card Pisces, for whatever reason, why litter it with Cancerian references and symbols

Because its (as Grandpa Simpson would say ) .... a little from column A and a little from column B .

(Waite's crayfish for example)

'Cause .... Waite was a retard ? I NOT would use him at all to understand Thoth, or Tarot ..... :)

* IMO IMO IMO *

and/or Scorpio-seeming symbols?

are they ? In any case all three signs are related . Scorpio is part of the process definitely ! 'A Scorpio' could be said to be one who 'uses the process to their own ends' .

Where are those fishes?

At the bottom of the card to the left of its title

And doesn't this just suggest that the card creators fell into the same trap as the beginners who sent me looking for answers?

No. It just means they had a deeper vision of the inner connections, Thoth is an eclectic deck as well as a Thelemic one. On this level, here, you cant expect to answer beginners questions like this, with out a whole lot of other background knowledge ..... just send them to some pop new age explanation :) ( yeah , I know 'those guys' cant explain these discrepancies , but you cant not eat your hermetic cake and then complain you are hungry ;) ) .


The card isnt' *really* about the Moon; it's about nighttime.

AND about a specific time of night , the similar phase of the Moon, the day, the year, the stage in our psychological journey, etc.
Yet references that relate the reader back to Cancer and it's ruling body, the moon, do make it about that celestial body. Also, in regards to those Anubises, death--which, again, totally goes with the "sleep" and night as a kind of death with ressurection in the morning. It works with the meaning of the card.

Now you are getting it.

But if the card is going to be defined and interpreted in terms of Pisces, shouldn't Pisces-centric imagery rule it?


It takes it place as it is attributed to it ... but dont make the mistake that the card is about Pisces, just like it isnt just about the Moon, or the dark Moon. These are a range of associations used to describe an an energy / process.

Its a bit like the finger pointing to the Moon ..... the finger or indicators are not the thing itself . They all come together to indicate the thing, not to substitute it.
 

ravenest

PS. The similar way quoph the letter associated with the card, represents 'back of head '.

Some systems attribute a 'hidden chakra' back there that has similar functions to the 'field' * we are talking about.

* for 'field' one can use 'column' , as in 777 - all these diverse energies can be collated into fields or areas of similar influence. IN this context we are using tarot as the key 'legend' . Perhaps one gets a better understanding when looking at the 'whole field' of which a tarot card is only one aspect.
 

ravenest

:p Phooey. Just like Pisces to be untidy :D

Don't know where the feet come in (outside of signifying the end of the cycle), but I get what you're saying as to the relationship between beetle and Pisces. It's certainly a more convoluted connection than just "both are armored."

And I still do have to wonder why, with so many fishy mythic symbols available and unused, the ambiguous beetle/crayfish was picked. I would have thought someone would go for a mermaid ;)

But how does any mythology of a mermaid equate with the specific psychological / magical process we are outlining ?

Sure, for pop Tarot .... nice Moon card, ocean, crab , tidal rocks, mermaid and attribute it to Moon planet . .... oh yeah, forgot to add ; And dont read any traditional meanings of what the Moon card indicates . :)
 

ravenest

It's very nice of you to hand me all these clues, but is there some reason you can't just say what you're trying to show me with them? I'm not a member of the Thoth club and haven't the scholarship to get what you're telling me without some help :)


As president of the Thoth Club ( ;) ) I must inform you that Mr Y holds no membership and persists in posting obscure information, that when questioned leads to .... ( well , see the other threads and posts by him ) ... and most of us ignore him.


So far as I can see, these references (1) tell me little to nothing about the beetle except that it might resemble the "fish bladder" shape. (2) Indicate that the relationship between the moon and Pisces is even more convoluted and requires way more knowledge than most beginners have, and so will continue to confuse. (3) Doesn't explain why the deck creators went for moon-related iconography more in tune with Cancer/Scorpio instead of Pisces. (4) Does suggest that the Moon card is the moon in eclipse (fish bladder shape) which is interesting and might help with the beetle connection. (5) And thank you very much. I now get the World card much better! I didn't know that Yoni was a Free Mason symbol.


.... and down the path of the 'dark Moon' she goes :)
 

ravenest

Most people can't tell the difference between crayfish, crab and lobster and some even think they are actually red (only when cooked, though they often have red markings) Lon Milo Duquette said of cards with these creatures that it makes him think of melted butter :joke: (Lon is a Cancer, they love food!)

When I was a kid I used to catch crayfish in a lake near where I live, and I am in New England so they are around here. Still can catch them actually but I don't. I like seeing the little buggers as it means the water ecology is healthy. They had disappeared for a few years but are back now. Gotta be quick to catch them though - and they swim both forwards and backwards! Which makes them hard to catch! Sort of like the Pisces fish swimming in both directions. They live in the dark crevasses under and around rock piles in the shallows.

Here we also have 'yabbies' . on certain nights they will emerge from their (fresh) water habitats and cross land to look for new watery places. I see the emergence of an underwater (unconscious) creature into the air and land ( consciousness ) as a symbol of the reverse process ; the consciousness attempts to traverse or comprehend the symbols of the unconscious - the basic Moon card process.


Well the palmistry hand which is making the sign for (or against really) witchcraft (or cuckoldry, or hook-em-horns depending on where you live haha; it is really just the witchcraft thing) is actually marked with the parts of the hand for the Moon and for Neptune. In the Book of Thoth Crowley speaks of this card in terms of witchcraft and sorcery, Tabu.

Interesting ! I have a very strong natal chart Neptune / Moon 'theme' .... if it wasn't regulated and bought to balance and sanity ( hey ! ... I heard that ! :mad: ) by a strong beneficial , well placed Mercury ... I'd be ****ed ! :bugeyed:
 

Thirteen

Quite a lot to respond to here; we'll stat with this and give over a second reply post to ravenest...
Well the palmistry hand which is making the sign for (or against really) witchcraft (or cuckoldry, or hook-em-horns depending on where you live haha; it is really just the witchcraft thing)
You forgot the "rock on!" sign. Personally, that's what I thought of on see it ;)
And also, they are meant to imply the Gates of Horn and Ivory, which show true dreams from false.
AH! Now I did not know that about the twin tower/gates thing in the Moon card. THAT is very useful to know. Thank you.
 

Thirteen

Yes, Cancer sign and dung beetle do equate, as in the Dendera Zodiac, and Keph Ra represents Sun at midnight , as in a 'natural zodiac' Cancer is shown at IC ('midnight' ) BUT The 'psychological state' when one is in 'the midnight position' has similarities to some psychological states 'Pisces type people' can find find themselves in.
So, you are saying that the dung beetle relations to "Sun at Midnight = Pisces psychologically. Okay.
But still the Moon card ... we cant escape that !
" Caterpillar sheds his skin
to find a butterfly within ..."
"I am the walrus, koo-koo-ki-choo"? :D Sorry. I don't buy it--because which, after all, is caterpillar/butterfly? The night or the moon? I only do zen thinking every other month.
Why ? I dont relate them to Scorpio at all in this context.
Context seems to be all--to me, Anubis is part of the underworld, met by the dead at the weighing of hearts. He is the psychopomp of that land. But I totally get that the Moon card is all about "creatures of the night" including bats, owls and wolves/dogs, therefore Anubis. So, okay. I get that it goes with the card and Pisces psychology.
At the bottom of the card to the left of its title
Nice of him to give that tip of a hat to the fishes ;)
It takes it place as it is attributed to it ... but dont make the mistake that the card is about Pisces, just like it isnt just about the Moon, or the dark Moon. These are a range of associations used to describe an an energy / process....Its a bit like the finger pointing to the Moon ..... the finger or indicators are not the thing itself . They all come together to indicate the thing, not to substitute it.
Okay, look. If you put a Scarab on the card, or a crayfish, a reader is going to look at the Moon card and say "Cancer the crab!" Because they all know that Cancer is ruled by the moon and there are those symbols that say "Cancer. "

So, if the card is, instead, about all the midnight psychology and back-of-the-head (all cool stuff), then why not give it those elements and forego any associations to Cancer the crab? Likewise, if it's about Pisces, why not throw in a fish? --if the card is NOT assigned to Cancer, why muddy the waters with Cancerian iconography? Even if it *can* be related if we do certain complicated yoga poses?
But how does any mythology of a mermaid equate with the specific psychological / magical process we are outlining ?
Swims in the depths; her song can lure ships to wreck and men to drown...sounds pretty close to that Piscean psychology you outlined when you described those Piscean friends, drug addiction included. And, quite literally, she's half fish. So she at least waves the flag of being "something fishy." Honestly, I really don't care if it's a mermaid or a trout or a sign that say "Gone fishing'" so long as the card has something that says "oh, by the way, my astrological sign is Pisces, not Cancer...never mind the Beetle/Crayfish there, that relates to the fish too, but it's going to take a college degree and lots of googling to explain." ;)

I mean, I get the whole secret society thing where if you haven't gone through the hazings and know the secret handshakes you shouldn't be reading the cards because they're supposed to be "members only!" But is it too much to ask for a fish or two in AS promenade a position as the Cancer/Moon iconography just to ease confusion? :D
PS. The similar way quoph the letter associated with the card, represents 'back of head ' Some systems attribute a 'hidden chakra' back there that has similar functions to the 'field' * we are talking about.
That's cool.
As president of the Thoth Club ( ;) ) I must inform you that Mr Y holds no membership and persists in posting obscure information, that when questioned leads to .... ( well , see the other threads and posts by him ) ... and most of us ignore him.
Ah! One of those. Got it. Thank you.

And thank you for your patience with all my questions and confusion. Thank you for taking the time to really explain it all. I think I'm getting the gist of it.