History of the High Priestess

Jewel-ry

Helvetica said:
I like the idea that La Papesse might be Mother Hildergard of Bingen, a 12th-century masterful nun, a mystic, a woman of knowledge, sensibility, great artistic and intellectual talent, and Europe-wide influence.

Probably as fanciful as Pope Joan ;) But I admit I often listen to Hildergard's plainchant compositions when I study the Tarot, and especially La Papesse.

~ Helvetica, I have done this too. Whilst studying 'O presul vere civitatis', for a course I was doing, I ended up putting away the books and getting out the cards! Very mesmerising. I havn't actually just studied La Papesse with the music but what a good idea? Thank-you
 

Sophie

Diana said:
But Mary Magdalene was Lazarus' sister, no?? (and also I believe that this is why Camoin put the Egg in his Papess. Because the story goes that the Magdalene took an Egg to Tiberius as a symbol of Jesus' resurrection.)

No, she was another Mary.
There are three Marys.

Did Mary Magdalene do that? Interesting.
I like Mary Magdalene. She is seen as the redeemed fallen woman, and some think she was Jesus' lover, but she was strong and had character and warmth. A worthy precursor of some of the great nuns of later years, like St Scholastica already mentioned, St Hilda, Abbess Hildergard or St Teresa of Avila. Or, equally, of alluring courtesans who rose to positions of responsibility.

She was the first one to whom Jesus revealed himself after his resurrection. He said, "don't touch me", when she would have embraced him. "Noli me tangere" in the Vulgate, a sentence that was to have a long future.
She told the others but none of the men believed her.

She cried all over Jesus' feet in her passion and her joy and her repentence, hence the expression "a magdalen" pronounced "maudlin".
 

roppo

I have a collection of wild guesses about Tarot personalities and for La Papesse, St Anne the mother of Blessed Virgin Mary (at least La Papesse of Marsaille).
At The Unterlinden Museum of Colmar we can see nun-like St Anne and crowned Mary set in a reredos.

http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~elfindog/anne1.jpg

just like II & III, aren't they? St Anne is an ideal grandmother and her attribute is a book: legend says St Anne taught Mary reading.
 

Phoenix Rising

Somehow I don't think the catholic church would of given any woman a high position in church. Didn't they just put Mother Mary in there so that they could draw the Pagans into there church. They knew that they Pagans worshipped Goddesses.

Other sources say that both Mary Magdalene who was Jesus's wife and they had a daughter Phoebe or Sarah. And Mother Mary were High Priestesses of the Essenes. And Jesus's true biolgical father was Archangel Gabrielle otherwise known as Simon the Essene.

The Greatest fall of Mankind was the "fall of Women" when man took away womans equality, how else could they of rule in this patriarchal society. Well the Woman are rising again!
 

Diana

Helvetica said:
No, she was another Mary.
There are three Marys.

This is another fact that historians will argue about forever. Half say there were two, and the other half say they were three. The Roman Catholic Church, as well as the Orthodox Church are adamant - there were three. (The Roman Catholic Church actually joined the Orthodox Church on this later on - before that, the High-Up Guys seemed not to agree about this....)

I believe there were only two... everything I have read makes me believe that it is once again the Roman Catholic Church who is making up their usual fibs and myths and legends just to please themselves when they say there are three.

But who knows...

And everytime I have studied La Papesse - even trying to play devil's advocate with myself to force myself to try not see The Magdalene in La Papesse, everything just leads me back to her. Whatever road I take, I find her...

(Oh, and about the Egg. When she took the Egg to Tiberius, the story goes that he didn't believe her about the Resurrection. So she told him that the egg would turn red if her story was true... and lo and behold.... the egg turned red. Which is why you will often see depictions of the Magdalene with a red egg in her hand.)
 

Sophie

Diana said:
This is another fact that historians will argue about forever. Half say there were two, and the other half say they were three. The Roman Catholic Church, as well as the Orthodox Church are adamant - there were three. (The Roman Catholic Church actually joined the Orthodox Church on this later on - before that, the High-Up Guys seemed not to agree about this....)

I believe there were only two... everything I have read makes me believe that it is once again the Roman Catholic Church who is making up their usual fibs and myths and legends just to please themselves when they say there are three

Not just Roman Catholic or Orthodox - as far as I know, all Christian Churches take the gospels as, well, gospel! - and the gospels mention three Marys. Including the oldest Churches (Syriac, Palestinian, Chaldean, etc). I'm not sure what they believed before the gospels were written and the canon was closed. I have no stake in the subject and have not seen other sources. Does it really matter?

The Papesse is just as likely to be a figure of a great churchwoman (St Scholastica was mentioned but there were many such great figures in the Middle Ages), or a great heretical figure (e.g. a Perfect woman leader). Or likelier still, not one single historical figure. A Symbol. Just as The Pope is not really a real Medieval Pope, but a Symbol of what A Pope should be.

Phoenix Rising said:
Somehow I don't think the catholic church would of given any woman a high position in church. Didn't they just put Mother Mary in there so that they could draw the Pagans into there church. They knew that they Pagans worshipped Goddesses

Strangely, nevertheless, women, especially up to the Counter-Reformation (things have gone downhill since) managed to make important places for themselves in the Church - as Abbesses of great houses, as founders of orders, as patronesses, as mystics. Jesus, of course, was always surrounded by women and valued them greatly. Women played a pivotal role in the Early Church, despite some of the mysogynistic pronouncements of some of the Church Fathers.

I don't think it was the Church (the Eastern or the Western Church) particularly who was mysogynistic - all Middle Eastern and European society reserved a secondary role for women. The Greeks might have had goddesses, but they kept their women hidden away and unlettered. Women had no standing in Roman law. In ancient Jewish tradition, women had power and influence in the home, but none outside it (this is still the case in very orthodox circles).

I am not a Catholic, but I read some unwarranted and unfair attacks on the Catholic Church on this thread using the Tarot as support. Personally I cannot see that the Tarot can be misused in such a polemical way. It is a beautiful book for spiritual development, not for attack. The figure of the Papesse is undoubtedly mysterious, and we will continue wondering about her. She is a wonder, too! She is the key to that book, I believe.
 

Diana

Helvetica said:
Does it really matter?

To me it matters. All things that concern the Tarot of Marseilles matter to me.

My understanding so far is that there were two Marys. But I am still seeking and am always willing to change my mind.

And I will seek till the end of my days.

I will try and find my sources that made me believe there were only two Marys. There are many of these (sources).
 

Ross G Caldwell

Hi Autumn,

Autumn said:
Hello Everyone

Any thoughts on the High Priestess evolving from the myth that the Roman Catholic church having a female pope name Joan in the 8th century. I am trying to research this subject and would appreciate any information that you can share.

Thanks,
Autumn

I wrote a short essay on this subject (with lots of images) at
http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot/papessa.html

Briefly, I think Pope Joan is *very* interesting subject, but I no longer think that the Tarot Popess has any direct relationship with her.

I agree essentially with what Helvetica said - the Papesse is likely to be "not one single historical figure. A Symbol. Just as The Pope is not really a real Medieval Pope, but a Symbol of what A Pope should be."

Here is an interesting picture, contemporary with early Tarot de Marseille images -
http://geocities.com/anytarot/papessa2.html

I think that "symbol" - the actual appearance of the woman on the card with all her attributes - is an allegory of the Church. The Church is headed by a Pope, just as the Empire is headed by an Emperor. So these four cards represent the two powers in the world, Church and Empire, Spiritual and Material.

http://geocities.com/anytarot/index
 

Sophie

Diana said:
To me it matters. All things that concern the Tarot of Marseilles matter to me.

My understanding so far is that there were two Marys. But I am still seeking and am always willing to change my mind.

And I will seek till the end of my days.

I will try and find my sources that made me believe there were only two Marys. There are many of these (sources).

As ever, Diana, I am touched by your passion. It is really disarming :)
I will look forward to those sources. It's always healthy to confront authority.

I suppose, to me, what matters is the symbol, the icon, what La Papesse can be inside me, how she lives inside me, not whether she is one Mary or another, or St Scholastica, or Manfreda Sforza. I like to put Hildergard of Bingen's face on her, because hers was a beautiful Papesse face and she lived a beautiful Papesse life, but this is just an image for me. If it were proved to me La Papesse was Mary Magdalene, I would be interested, but it wouldn't change my essential relationship with her. I discovered her in the Marseille in a direct, unadulterated way. Though I was always attracted to the High Priestess, that lady wearing an Egyptian headdress didn't really speak a language I could understand - I found her lovely but she was removed from me. In contrast, my meeting with La Papesse has been tremendous and it is still working its way in my psyche.