Newbie to Thoth needs advice

foolMoon

If Thelema is a religion, then it's followers would seek God, Divine knowledge, immortality and salvation in it. Maybe they have their own ways of practicing their religious beliefs, such as trying to be true and faithful to one's will, practicing and acting based on love ... Etc.

If not for those, why do they become followers? What's their purpose for becoming Thelemite?

Maybe Thelema is not a religion?

Nemia

foolMoon, it seems to me that your conception of religion is very much modeled on Christianity. Different religions have different goals. Greek Paganism sought neither salvation nor immortality in their belief. What you defined as "religion" in my opinion defines Christianity to a T, at least certain branches of it, but certainly not religions in general.

That's at least my impression.

foolMoon

Nemia said:
foolMoon, it seems to me that your conception of religion is very much modeled on Christianity. Different religions have different goals. Greek Paganism sought neither salvation nor immortality in their belief. What you defined as "religion" in my opinion defines Christianity to a T, at least certain branches of it, but certainly not religions in general.

That's at least my impression.

Nemia thanks for your input.

I am not familiar with the Greek Paganism, but if it were a religion, then they would have pursued at least one of above purposes for their beliefs and practices. Another element, these minor sectors were after is Good luck or fortune for the followers. If non of these factors were aimed in their practices, then I don't see it as religion. Even if they don't say or write it, it is usually implied in their messages somewhere.

IR writes in his GD book, the purpose of the neophyte initiation is to seek immortality. In that regard, and with other characters in the order, the GD is a religion, in my book.

ravenest

foolMoon said:
If Thelema is a religion, then it's followers would seek God, Divine knowledge, immortality and salvation in it. Maybe they have their own ways of practicing their religious beliefs, such as trying to be true and faithful to one's will, practicing and acting based on love ... Etc.

If not for those, why do they become followers? What's their purpose for becoming Thelemite?

Maybe Thelema is not a religion?

Well, I was responding to this part that opened your post " According to most masters of occultism " So it seemed that what followed was about 'most masters of occultism' not anyone specific. Then the subject seemed to jump.

This one starts with an 'if' . IMO Thelema is not a religion, it is a system of magical philosophy; 'also "There is no God but Man' would seem to dispel the 'God. idea ( but not 'the Gods' .

Buddhism is a religion and they do not 'believe in God'.

You cant quote a basic premise. like 'Do what thou wilt' then remove that and ask , what is their purpose ?

However there ARE many other purposes and reasons for a thelemite and many have nothing to do with God and religion.

The Thelemic liturgical expression is the Gnostic Mass. There you might find 'a God' but here again, even with liturgical expression, its a different kettle of fish .... and some study and clear thinking is needed to comprehend what is going on ( on a theurgical and theological level ) in that Mass.

ravenest

foolMoon said:
Nemia thanks for your input.

I am not familiar with the Greek Paganism, but if it were a religion, then they would have pursued at least one of above purposes for their beliefs and practices.

... 'at least one' .... that is why I wrote in the first post after yours;

" It can be fixed up by changing it to ' searching for the light, God, enlightenment OR savior '

foolMoon said:
Another element, these minor sectors were after is Good luck or fortune for the followers. If non of these factors were aimed in their practices, then I don't see it as religion.

But now you have slipped into a 'if none " ..... So you went from a postulation of all, to some to ' if none '.

foolMoon said:
Even if they don't say or write it, it is usually implied in their messages somewhere.

HUH ? Then you must be interpreting that out of things yourselves , if it isnt said or written. Any implications' can be highly influenced by one's own bias without fuller understandings of a system and other systems to compare it to

foolMoon said:
IR writes in his GD book, the purpose of the neophyte initiation is to seek immortality. In that regard, and with other characters in the order, the GD is a religion, in my book.

Did he actually write that , or is it 'implied' ?

foolMoon

ravenest said:
Well, I was responding to this part that opened your post " According to most masters of occultism " So it seemed that what followed was about 'most masters of occultism' not anyone specific. Then the subject seemed to jump.

This one starts with an 'if' . IMO Thelema is not a religion, it is a system of magical philosophy; 'also "There is no God but Man' would seem to dispel the 'God. idea ( but not 'the Gods' .

Buddhism is a religion and they do not 'believe in God'.

You cant quote a basic premise. like 'Do what thou wilt' then remove that and ask , what is their purpose ?

However there ARE many other purposes and reasons for a thelemite and many have nothing to do with God and religion.

The Thelemic liturgical expression is the Gnostic Mass. There you might find 'a God' but here again, even with liturgical expression, its a different kettle of fish .... and some study and clear thinking is needed to comprehend what is going on ( on a theurgical and theological level ) in that Mass.

Most masters of occultism .... Yes, it is a general statement. Then I picked up Thelema as an example. What is strange with it? After all this this Thoth forum, so Thelema is naturally relevant for the thread.

Buddhism, I read it somewhere, is a religion believing that you become a God yourself, when you arrive at Nirvana, or you eternally reborn into this world.

One thing clear is, that they all strive to achieve immortality, or / and either worship God(s), or aim to communicate with him / them. And what do you think those huge Buddha figures, the followers worship, bow and pray to in the temples. He is their God who used be a man in ancient India, who became God figure after his death.

Anyway, this is not core of this thread, but what I really was aiming to know was, what relations does Gnosticism have with Thelema and Thoth tarot.

And as you have described Thelema as a system of magical philosophy, please define what it is, and what do they aim in their practice.

And please list many other purposes and reasons of Thelemite which has nothing to do with God and religion.

foolMoon

ravenest said:
... 'at least one' .... that is why I wrote in the first post after yours;

" It can be fixed up by changing it to ' searching for the light, God, enlightenment OR savior '

But now you have slipped into a 'if none " ..... So you went from a postulation of all, to some to ' if none '.

HUH ? Then you must be interpreting that out of things yourselves , if it isnt said or written. Any implications' can be highly influenced by one's own bias without fuller understandings of a system and other systems to compare it to

Did he actually write that , or is it 'implied' ?

As I said on previous post, this thread is not about logically and theoretically defining religion digging out some obscure paganism and superstious sects in remote places and times.

Ok you focused on Buddhism how they don't have God, but I clarified on your misconception on Buddhism, so hopefully it would be clear.

Listing some elements and characters belonging to the main religion was to investigate possible link between Gnostics to Thelema and Thoth.

Yes, It is clearly written on the GD book in the Neophyte initiation bit.

Always Wondering

foolMoon said:
If Thelema is a religion, then it's followers would seek God, Divine knowledge, immortality and salvation in it. Maybe they have their own ways of practicing their religious beliefs, such as trying to be true and faithful to one's will, practicing and acting based on love ... Etc.

If not for those, why do they become followers? What's their purpose for becoming Thelemite?

Maybe Thelema is not a religion?

I think this is something you have to decide for yourself. I found this post very helpful.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1708684&postcount=22

It comes from this thread where the topic was discussed.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=109981

My thoughts on this still change, though I don't view it as a religion per say, I use Thelema, especially The Book of Law, as some might use a religion.

I hope this helps.

AW

foolMoon

Always Wondering said:
I think this is something you have to decide for yourself. I found this post very helpful.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1708684&postcount=22

It comes from this thread where the topic was discussed.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=109981

My thoughts on this still change, though I don't view it as a religion per say, I use Thelema, especially The Book of Law, as some might use a religion.

I hope this helps.

AW

Great links, AW, thank you. Will read them over when peace and quiet, and get back. Seems these threads contain jewels of discussion.

93

foolMoon

Always Wondering said:
I think this is something you have to decide for yourself. I found this post very helpful.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1708684&postcount=22

It comes from this thread where the topic was discussed.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=109981

My thoughts on this still change, though I don't view it as a religion per say, I use Thelema, especially The Book of Law, as some might use a religion.

I hope this helps.

AW

I have skimmed the thread, and it seems a huge topic. Will take a while for me to digest them.

I have a book "Living Thelema" by Shoemaker, and Thelema seems to have all the religious elements, and they are all aiming at connecting with God. For example, meditations, path working with tarot, tree of life, sexual magick, hexagram rituals, lrp ..... Etc.

I feel tree of life is especially religious topic, because it defines path from God to Malkuth. One cannot connect with God without that path or map.

And when it says "do what thou wilt ...", it is guiding its followers how to live. Philosophy doesn't do that. Only religion does.

But there are also factors which doesn't fit to be religion like it doesn't have congregation of followers but tend to be individual oriented as Aeon says. But I don't see it particularly important factor for qualifying as religion or not.

To me, it looks like it is up to the individual to take it as a religion and follow, or take it up as just magical society. Whatever the case it would be great to further study into the topic to understand Thoth better or just as a spiritual subject.