Newbie to Thoth needs advice

ravenest

Most masters of occultism .... Yes, it is a general statement. Then I picked up Thelema as an example. What is strange with it? After all this this Thoth forum, so Thelema is naturally relevant for the thread.

Buddhism, I read it somewhere, is a religion believing that you become a God yourself, when you arrive at Nirvana, or you eternally reborn into this world.

One thing clear is, that they all strive to achieve immortality, or / and either worship God(s), or aim to communicate with him / them. And what do you think those huge Buddha figures, the followers worship, bow and pray to in the temples. He is their God who used be a man in ancient India, who became God figure after his death.

Anyway, this is not core of this thread, but what I really was aiming to know was, what relations does Gnosticism have with Thelema and Thoth tarot.

And as you have described Thelema as a system of magical philosophy, please define what it is, and what do they aim in their practice.

And please list many other purposes and reasons of Thelemite which has nothing to do with God and religion.

Hmmm , I was commenting on the difficulty of answering a shifting question, re the first part above. ... anyway , aside from confusions, yes Thelema is relevant here and no nothing is 'strange' with that .

You are going on what you read somewhere . I am going on what Tibetan Lamas taught me personally and my readings of Buddha's writings . Yes, some have turned it into a God worshiping thing , but thats like saying jesus taught crusades as some later people justified what they were doing for their needs via a religion, it doesnt change what the religious or philosophical message essentially was .

I think you misunderstand the core of buddhism and the 'end result' .

The magical philosophy of Thelema is 'Do what thou Wilt' and ' Love is the Law' and 'Every man and every woman is a star', Etc.

You could actually read the Book of the Law, instead of ask me to list it ALL for you .

Gnosticism has a strong relationship to it , as I said 'The Gnostic Mass' is the liturgical expression of Thelema .

Or go to a Thelemic deffinition of Gnosticism

http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Gnosticism


and follow the hotlinks

also I wont list 'many other purposes' but they are abundant if you care to look. here is a starter for you

The OTO a specific Thelemic version was developed by Crowley; it can be seen as a social experiment, a fraternity, a system of initiation and individuation , none of them need be associated with God or religion.


The thing with thelema anyway is, one interprets it how they will , there is no ongoing authority on how to interpret it or what it should mean to you .

You are free to make it a religion, or about God , the Gods, symbolic or 'real', psychological or magical...... or not ... actually, Crowley said the 'Great Secret' will be obvious and replicated by science in the near future .... I thunk we are there now .

Aint supposed to be no dictators.
 

foolMoon

Hmmm , I was commenting on the difficulty of answering a shifting question, re the first part above. ... anyway , aside from confusions, yes Thelema is relevant here and no nothing is 'strange' with that .

You are going on what you read somewhere . I am going on what Tibetan Lamas taught me personally and my readings of Buddha's writings . Yes, some have turned it into a God worshiping thing , but thats like saying jesus taught crusades as some later people justified what they were doing for their needs via a religion, it doesnt change what the religious or philosophical message essentially was .

I think you misunderstand the core of buddhism and the 'end result' .

The magical philosophy of Thelema is 'Do what thou Wilt' and ' Love is the Law' and 'Every man and every woman is a star', Etc.

You could actually read the Book of the Law, instead of ask me to list it ALL for you .

Gnosticism has a strong relationship to it , as I said 'The Gnostic Mass' is the liturgical expression of Thelema .

Or go to a Thelemic deffinition of Gnosticism

http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Gnosticism


and follow the hotlinks

also I wont list 'many other purposes' but they are abundant if you care to look. here is a starter for you

The OTO a specific Thelemic version was developed by Crowley; it can be seen as a social experiment, a fraternity, a system of initiation and individuation , none of them need be associated with God or religion.


The thing with thelema anyway is, one interprets it how they will , there is no ongoing authority on how to interpret it or what it should mean to you .

You are free to make it a religion, or about God , the Gods, symbolic or 'real', psychological or magical...... or not ... actually, Crowley said the 'Great Secret' will be obvious and replicated by science in the near future .... I thunk we are there now .

Aint supposed to be no dictators.


System of magical philosophy sounds somewhat unclear to me. Magical philosophy? System?
Philosophy has three categories. The first one is ontology which deals with problem of existence. That's is what is that exists? Can we say God exist? Why do things exist? These issues.

Aesthetics which deals with problem of judgement for beauty and ugliness good and evil, right and wrong.


Problem of perception, which deals with what can be known, how do we know things, what the limit of human perception.

So magical philosophy sounds that it needs good investigation on what it actually means and does.

From philosophical point of view, magic is not something that is compatible or belong in their areas or topics. From magical point of view, it does not need philosophical armament unless it purports to prove it is communicating with deity or invoke Angels, which are religious performance. But Thelema is not a religion, you claim.

System? We only call philosophy as system, when it expounds the origin of the universe, men, religion, society, politics, laws ..... Etc etc the whole lot in systematic and logical way. For example, Plato, Aristotle, Hegel or Kant's philosophy can be branded as philosophical system, but not Thelema.

Ok Book of Law, it is supposed to be dictated by ac from the voices of deities. I quote

"Crowley claimed it was dictated to him by a discarnate entity named Aiwass. However, the three chapters are largely written in the first person by the Thelemic deities Nuit, Hadit, and Ra-Hoor-Khuit respectively, rather than by Aiwass/Ahwaz."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_the_Law

That sounds like ac intended Thelma to be more of a religion than system of magical philosophy, which is obscure in what it stands for.
 

ravenest

System of magical philosophy sounds somewhat unclear to me. Magical philosophy? System?
Philosophy has three categories. The first one is ontology which deals with problem of existence. That's is what is that exists? Can we say God exist? Why do things exist? These issues.

Aesthetics which deals with problem of judgement for beauty and ugliness good and evil, right and wrong.


Problem of perception, which deals with what can be known, how do we know things, what the limit of human perception.

So magical philosophy sounds that it needs good investigation on what it actually means and does.

Thats right, good luck with the investigations you need to do to understand this, You will find answers to those questions, from a Thelemic viewpoint if you ever read a few books by Crowley, I suggest starting with 'Liber Aleph' and 'Magick Without Tears' .

From philosophical point of view, magic is not something that is compatible or belong in their areas or topics.


Of course it is ! Unless you restrict the definition of magick so it then won't .

Have you actually read Book 4 LIber Aba Magick ?

From magical point of view, it does not need philosophical armament unless it purports to prove it is communicating with deity or invoke Angels, which are religious performance.

Again, you are restricting things by your own definitions to try and prove a restricted definition. You wont get anywhere trying to make that claim above .... do you know what Enochian MAGIC is ?

Show me a 'religious ceremony' that does not use 'magical technology' to invoke a deity (careful, quicksand ahead ;) )

But Thelema is not a religion, you claim.

Rubbish! Now you are twisting things to try to make a point .

Read the end of my last post .

System? We only call philosophy as system, when it expounds the origin of the universe,

Thelema does this by using the analogy of 'Neo-Egyptian Neteru ; the dynamic between Nuit, Hadit, ra Hoor Khuit, and the many writings on that and related to that.

men, religion, society, politics, laws

Its all about the nature of Man , what do you think the first 3 OTO degrees are about ? It uses and understands the basic tools of 'religious technology' ( which is also that of magick ) , the OTO is a social experiment ( see the preface to Equinox 3 : 10 By Hymaneaus Beta ( for a brief clear explanation) . POlitics, is the same .... they even have a SEnate degree - read the OTO Constitution, laws ? ? ? :) ... thats too easy, the whole philosophical base of Thelema is based on one law ; Do what wilt shall be THE WHOLE OF THE LAW.

..... Etc etc the whole lot in systematic and logical way.

I can see the system and logic, I doubt someone that has not studied and experienced the system can see it.

And I dont understand why someone that had, would write what you have ?

So I have to conclude you are just protesting about a system you dont really understand from a 'snapshot' view clouded by your own preconceptions .... there are many reasons I say this, one pf the most obvious though is to postulate that Thelema has no basis in Law , when that IS its basis .

For example, Plato, Aristotle, Hegel or Kant's philosophy can be branded as philosophical system, but not Thelema.

Ok Book of Law, it is supposed to be dictated by ac from the voices of deities. I quote

"Crowley claimed it was dictated to him by a discarnate entity named Aiwass. However, the three chapters are largely written in the first person by the Thelemic deities Nuit, Hadit, and Ra-Hoor-Khuit respectively, rather than by Aiwass/Ahwaz."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_the_Law

That sounds like ac intended Thelma to be more of a religion than system of magical philosophy, which is obscure in what it stands for.

You dont seem to understand about philosophers ( and people like Jung ) having such 'discarnate entities' around them and communicating with them

http://daemonpage.com/socrates-daimon.php &

https://archive.org/stream/a591631100mannuoft/a591631100mannuoft_djvu.txt

http://www2.fiu.edu/~hauptli/SocraticVoicesPietyandRationalityLectureSupplement.html

Plato even says we should 'choose a daemon'

http://thezodiac.com/weird/reincarnationplato2.htm


Also, if you studied magic or philosophy yourself you would realise the connection is so obvious ..... but one needs to actually study it and its roots, not the quick mod pop snapshot view one may get.

I mean its the whole basis of the world viewpoint and paradigm before 1600 that magic religion and philosophy were inexorably entwined !

even wiki says that .... "
Renaissance humanism (15th and 16th century) saw a resurgence in hermeticism and Neo-Platonic varieties of ceremonial magic. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_magic

You need to do a LOT more research and study .
 

foolMoon

I was only making a point that your definition that Thelema is a "system of magical philosophy" is obscure, illogical and full of contradictions from genuine philosophical point of view.

So I gave simple and clear explanation and examples clarifying on the issues.
 

Richard

Etymologically, Thelema can be characterized as a philosophy, but it does not fit into the mold of academic philosophy, which has been carefully restricted, especially since Wittgenstein observed that metaphysics, for example, is largely expressed by words whose denotations are notoriously vague.
 

Michael Sternbach

Etymologically, Thelema can be characterized as a philosophy, but it does not fit into the mold of academic philosophy, which has been carefully restricted, especially since Wittgenstein observed that metaphysics, for example, is largely expressed by words whose denotations are notoriously vague.

However, Heidegger didn't hesitate to equate philosophy with metaphysics.
 

Michellehihi

Good evening everyone,
I am not participating a lot in the conversation, although I read all your posts. It is that I don't really understand what you talk...Thelema, I don't even know who this is...I should do wikipedia I would find it!
But really I am a Christian by faith, and I am a very down-to-earth/analytical woman. I doubt a lot, I doubt about many things. And some things are against what my religion taught me: like reincarnation, as a Christian I am not supposed to believe this. Also, I am protestant and I am not supposed to believe in angels.
Then there is my logical self, telling me that I have to believe my own truth, not what religion tells me. Then another voice tells me "who am I to pretend I know any truth?". I want to be true to God, but how do I know if I am?
Anyways, that's why I don't write too much...
 

Michellehihi

Protestants are not supposed to believe in angels?

Not in my church. We cannot pray angels, the saints, Mary, no one except Jesus. But sometimes I go to peep in a catholic church, and they have all these, and beautiful crystal windows! And statues! Oh it's so beautiful! But no, in my church, walls are blank, and we have no statues.