The Greek Lots/Arabic Parts

Minderwiz

I'm away tomorrow, so the next part will be Monday, unless Dave is able to post before. Any questions on what has been covered so far, will be gratefully received :)
 

dadsnook2000

A book on the Part of Fortune

Astrologer Judith Hill has written a book The Part of Fortune in Astrology, published in the USA in 2010. This small book of 3 dozen pages, at about $15 US plus shipping, may not be worth it for many beginning-level students but it was important to me due to the role of the Part of Fortune in Moon-to-Sun and Moon-opposite-Sun Return charts.

The book provides some history, PoF in signs and houses, and in contact with planets. As such, for me, it is a reference source even though my interpretations concerning the PoF are a bit different.

Ms Hill cites three different meanings for the Part of Fortune. 1) The Place of Happiness, 2) Money, and 3) Correction.

This third meaning involves an evaluation of the planet it contacts. If the planet is very weak in the chart but positively inclined, then the PoF will strengthen its effects. If the planet is very weak in the chart and is negatively inclined, the PoF can mitigate its overall effects to some degree. If the planet is strong and positive, the PoF can make the planet "miraculous" in its influence. If the planet is strong and negative in its chart effects, we can have a threatening situation.

I just received this book and have not looked at the Part of Fortune in this way, merely seeing it as "chance and change" -- either or both. What I do suspect is that the PoF position and contact with a planet provides an expressional outlet for the Ascendant.

For example, lets say the Ascendant had Mars close by and the PoF conjoined Saturn. The Ascendant would want to be proactive and assertive but would find frustration in trying to act on any situation. Any steps take would result in a stop and go situation.

If the Ascendant had no planets nearby, and the PoF conjoined Mercury, the subject would be talkative and curious, encouraging others to do something for him/her or trying discover what they were doing that affected him/her.

But, I will have to check out the positive-negative influences that Ms Hill noted. Dave
 

Minderwiz

Some interesting observations Dave.Judith Hill's view of Fortune colouring nearby planets, is especially of note because the implication is that a point an modify a planet and not the other way around.

I agree with your views, as I understand them. Fortune (and Spirit plus most other Lots) is a projection from the Ascendant and a planet conjunct or in close major aspect will colour it, as will a planet that conjoins the Lot or closely aspects it.

The traditional association of Fortune with health and the body's vulnerability to 'chance and (external) change has clear implications for money and happiness - and so much more - but as you say it is the 'correction' that demands some investigation here.
 

Minderwiz

The Hermetic Lots - Entering in Morinus

There are 5 ‘Hermetic’ Lots, occurring in Hellenistic Astrology, none of which have any usage by modern Astrologers. For those of you that have an interest in the origins of hermeticism they may be of interest and I can see several instances where they may be of real use. Remember though, that even the Lots of Fortune and Spirit are ‘secondary’ to planets and their condition in the chart, and are also secondary to Ascendant and MC (I think the Greeks would promote these two Lots over the MC but I almost certainly would not). As the Hermetic Lots are derived from Fortune and Spirit, they are at best tertiary indicators, both in natal, event and derived charts for forecasting – that does not stop them being significant but it does require you to look at other things first.

The five Hermetic Lots are:

Eros = Ascendant + Venus – Spirit
Victory = Ascendant + Jupiter – Spirit
Courage = Ascendant + Fortune – Mars
Nemesis = Ascendant + Fortune – Saturn
Necessity = Ascendant + Fortune – Mercury

The first two are based on the Lot of Spirit, the Latter 3 are based on the Lot of Fortune. I will look at these in more detail in the next post, after I have explained how to enter them in the Morinus Lots editor. For the moment, you may intuitively recognise the use of the planets, Venus. Jupiter, Mars and Saturn as being appropriate to the name of the Lot. Necessity and it’s use of Mercury, will require some more detailed explanation of its derivation.

To enter these into Morinus, open the Lots editor from Options, Lots

Firstly make sure that the diurnal check box is ticked – all these lots change formula from day to night and Morinus will do that automatically if this box is checked.

In the name box on the left enter ‘Lot of Eros’ (this name will obviously be changed from Lot ot Lot)

The first drop down box will be set to AC {Ascendant) and so should not need changing.

In the second drop down box, press the down arrow to open the list and then scroll down to VE – Venus.

In the third and final drop down box open the drop down box press the down arrow to open the list and scroll down to RE (which is next to the bottom). This stands for ‘Reference’ and allows you to reference another Lot. Once you have selected it, look at the ‘reference’ section immediately below the diurnal check box (double checking on the way that it is still checked)

There is another set of drop boxes, aligned to the drop boxes for the Lot formula. The first two are greyed out but contain the number ‘1’. The third which is directly below the third box is now active. It still contains ‘1’. Click this box’s down arrow and select ‘2’ (this makes the reference to the second Loton your right hand list – the Lot of Spirit. You can now click add to enter the new Lot of Eros on your right hand list.

To enter Victory all that you need do is to alter the name box accordingly and VE to JU in the second formula drop down box. Check that the diurnal box is still checked and the third reference drop down is still set to ‘2’ and press ‘Add’

By now you should have the hang of this. For the next three Lots, the formula box needs to read

AC + RE – MA (Courage)
AC + RE – SA (Nemesis)
AC + RE – ME (Necessity)

Change the lot names accordingly before you enter the formulas and for each of them the second drop down box in the reference section should be active. Leave this set to its default of ‘1’ – the Lot of Fortune.

Having checked that the dirurnal box is still checked press ‘Add’ and move on to the next Lot. Ensure that the right hand list correctly adds the Lot to Morinus’ list. If you make a mistake or forget to press Add at some point and get out of sequence, you can use the ‘Modify’ or ‘Remove’ buttons to correct your mistake.

You should now have seven lots on your right hand list. Go down the list ensuring that the check box before each number is ticked then click OK to close the editor.
 

Minderwiz

THe Hermetic Parts in Action

The Hermetic Lots are found in Paul of Alexandria's text 'Panaratus' (meaning All-virtuous). That he calls them the 'Hermetic Lots' suggests that he thought they were very old - he attributes them to Hermes, - and that he treats them with great reverance. Paul wrote towards the end of the fourth century CE, so their origins must go back to at least the turn of the millenium, if not further.

I'll have a look at them using Tony Blair's chart. Taking them in order:

The Lot of Eros (Ascendant + Venus - Spirit) lies at 11 degrees Capricorn, it's ruler is Saturn and its almuten is shared between Saturn and Mars (Mars is exalted in Capricorn and the Lot falls into the Face of Mars). This lot is not about erotic love as you might immediately think (and which might be more exciting LOL) but about voluntary association and friendship. It's a little like some modern astrologer's view of venus as a planet dealing with relationships.

Blair's other lot derived from the Lot of Spirit is the Lot of Victory (Ascendant + Jupiter - Spirit) and this lies at 25 degrees Aquarius again ruled by Saturn, which is also its almuten. Victory is concerned with gratified expectations, enterprise and success. As both these lots come from the Lot of Spirit, both are concerned with our own efforts and decisions aimed at achieving our goals.

Saturn is the stongest planet in Blair's chart in turns of essential dignity, being in its own exaltation and in its own triplicity. It is also reasonably placed in the fifth house which is a succeedent house. Mars, although Peregrine in Gemini, lies exactly on Blari's Ascendant - best placed of all planets for action.

The Lot of Eros lies in Blair's eighth House, both in the whole sign chart and in the Regiomontanus chart. The eighth is inconjunct the Ascendant, which is a rather unfortunate position and one which is difficul to see and by seen from the Ascendant. Blair's friendships are very likely to lie behind the scenes and not necessarily work to his advantage. The three most notable friendships were with Gordon Browh (later to become an estranged friendship which dogged his premiershipP which led to him having a fairly clear run at the party leadership in 1994 and did much to set the policies for the coming government,; with Peter Mandelsson, who helped him and Brown forge 'New Labour' but which brought embarassments in office as Mandalson was forced to resign, not once but twice amidst scandals. However by the time that these arrived Blair had achieved his goal of becoming Prime Minister

His part of Victory lies in the ninth house of the Whole sign chart, in the eleventh of the REgiomontanus chart. The latter, as was seen previously is the house of politics and government. The ninth is concerned with the Law (Blair made his name first as a barrister) and with religious matters, - Blair is a committed Christian who was alleged to have prayed with George W Bush and who converted to Catholocism after he left office. His religious beliefs seem to have informed government policy - he introduced 'faith schools'. But it was another ninth house area that Blair would point to as his area of success - foreign matters. His premiership involbed a number of foreign actions, often involving a military dimension, such as the involvement in Bosnia,. Blair's friendships and alliances eventually did cost him dearly in terms of political supprt, his friendship with George W Bush and Gult War involvement. Yet neither led directly to his resignation and he still couts the overthrow of Saddam as a great achievement.

The remaining three Hermetic Parts are related to the Part of Fortune and thus in someway relate to the social, political, economic and cultural environment and their effects on the individual concerned.

The Lot of Courage as it's name implies is related to boldness and strength but also to plotting and evil doing - the same range as Mars, itself.

Blairs Lot of Courage (Ascendant + Fortune - Mars) lies at 2 degrees Pisces, like Fortuna, which is nearby, it is ruled by Jupiter and has Venus as almuten, As with Fortuna it lies in the tenth house in the Greek chart, in the eleventh in the Regiomontanus chart. Blair's boldness is a political boldness , he was a bold politician. As Fortuna shows the tide was running for him, but he had the boldness and decisive insight to make the most of it.

The Lot of Nemesis, (Ascendant + Fortune - Mercury)shows where he has weakness, loss, and exile. This lies in mid Libra, and has Venus as it's ruler and Saturn as it''s almuten. In the Greek Whole Sign chart it lies in the fifth House, suggesting concerns about children but in the Regiomontanus Chart, it lies in the sixth, suggesting health issues. Blair had few problems with his children, the most public was when his elder son was discovered drunk and incapacitated. He did have health issues , a heart problem leading to hospitalisation and as Nemesis is unavoidable, this may still be a serious threat. The sixth is a house of sorrow and adverse conditions - suggesting that, for Blair, what goes up, must come down - the wheel of Fortune will turn against him and the people who support him will eventually turn against him. Charles Carter identified the sixth with the Labour Party, suggesting in this context that the party too would eventually be his nemesis. The sixth is also the house of servants - and Blair's main political servant - his Chancellor, Gordon Brown was perhaps the eventual nemesis of Blair's political career. Given Brown's saturnine appearance that may be 'nuff said, given that Saturn lies in the sixth House of the Regiomontanus chart.

Finally the Lot of Neccessity (Ascendant + Fortune - Mercury) shows restrictive and adversarial situations and subordination battles - the posiiblity of adapting and perhaps overcoming difficult situations in life. For Blair this lies in Aries at 9 degrees, suled by Mars and has the Sun as almuten. The lot lies in the eleventh House and again suggests politics, an adversarial professions. It's also the house of friends and it was with his former friend Gordon Brown that Blair faught most of the political battles of his premiership. Necessity does not require that you are doomed merely that there are difficult circumstances to overcome. Blair's second and last term as Prime Minister was dogged with the batttles with Brown and though these were handled effectively enough to keep the government together, it's reasonably clear that Blair eventuall had had enough of the infighting and decided that it was time to go.
 

Minderwiz

Given that the Lots have three elements, each of which can be a planet or point, it's fairly clear that the number of potential Lots is quite large. Some Lots developed in the twentieth century contain one of the three outer planets, but there's no reason why other bodies such as asteroids , or centaurs, or plutoids could not be used. There's also no reason why other points could not be used, such as the vertex or Dave's favourite, the co-descendant, or any other modern point.

Abu Mas'h'ar in the ninth century wrote that he had learned 97 Lots form 'Egyptian and Babylonian' sources (Egyptian here almost certainly relates to the Hellensitic later kingdom and the Alexandrian Astrologers in particular). Bonnati writing in the thirteenth century also mentions 97 'Parts' according to Zoller (I have not checked that these are the same 97 LOL). And Al Biruni in the 11th century complained that the number of parts multiplies 'almost daily'.

This leads to the issue of which should you use. There's no correct answer to this, but a sensible approach would be to keep your 'pool' of lots quite small and to draw from it selectively. Lind Weber is his very badly written book 'The Arabian Parts Decoded', outlines 22 Parts, although this includes the diurnatl and nocturnal versions of solar and lunar 'Parts' relating to each of the other six classical planets . This means 12 'Parts' which include the Sun as the Lord of sect and 12 'Parts' which include the Moon as Lord of sect. As two of these produced duplication (Fortune and Spirit include both Lights) the final total is 22.

To this he adds the 'Parts' from combinations of the other classic planets but excluding Sun and Moon. taking him up to 63 (and no room yet for the modern planets and bodies or other points). I think anyone who goes to the extent of using 63 Lots is taking exalted Mercury to the extreme. I would suggest that an armoury of around 20 is more than enough and that you use these selectively. For example you only use Lots relating to marriage or children when you are analysing this area of life and only as secondary measures to planets and houses in the natal chart. You will find these lots under a variety of names on the internet, in software and in books. Don't be put off by the variety of names, for the same thing. Firstly the Lots were in regular use for at least a milenium and by at least two major cultures, so it's not surprising. Moreover each planet can express a variety of core meanings. So any lot which includes two planets could well take on a variety of meanings - which you choose relates to the context of your analysis

So Ascendant + Sun - Jupiter might well indicate a sharp spiritual awakening iwhen conjoined by transiting Mars, in a context where you are concerned with spiritual matters, but or a ruler or government it might well indicate a time to go to war when it is conjoined by tthe same transiting Mars.

The above example includes transits, and transits to Fortune or Spirit will activate Ascendant, Sun and Moon at the same time, which shows their importance in predictive work. Indeed Weber only sees the parts as significant when they are subject to a transit. The Moon transits each part once a month, other planets less frequently. The transit of Fortune by the Moon might well be treated as especially significant, as it is the Lot of the Moon and the most important single lot. In turn if Fortune is aspected by other planets in the natal chart, these should be activated. As well as transits, Traditional Astrology sees the Lots as having significance in their own right.

There's also evidence that the Greeks used the lots as alternative origins to the Ascendant, when exploring some matters. So in the absence of a precise time for your father's birth (or even a precise location) you might well use the Lot of the Father (covered later) to set up a chart to examine his affairs.

This use of alternative reference points for a chart is not widely used these days, though I believe that the Hamburg School adopted Ptolemy's use of Sun, Moon or other planet as a key reference point in some charts. Ptolemy would have used the Sun by Day and Saturn by Night as the planet to signify the father in the above example and run the (Whole Sign) houses from their positions.


I'm only going to look at the Lots relating to family before I finish. These are areas of concern in many horary questions and/or consultations. And I'll look at those in tomorrows post before adding some concluding remarks from me, but again please ask any questions if you are interested in making use of them.
 

dadsnook2000

Selecting which Parts or Lots to use

If I were primarily engaged in natal chart work for family, friends and public figures (which many early-studies astrologers are) I would choose a small listing of Parts/Lots which would fit with the typical subjects or problems that come up in life. Perhaps the following list might be a starting point for consideration:

** Accord and Harmony: Asc + Mercury - Venus
** Bankruptcy: Jupiter + Neptune - Uranus
** Catastrophe: Asc. + Uranus - Sun
** Danger, Violence, & Debt: Asc + Mercury - Saturn
** Death of Parents: Asc. + Jupiter - Saturn
** Divorce: Asc. + Venus - 7th
** False Love: Asc + Neptune - Venus
** Fulfillment: Asc. + Mars - Venus
** Imprisonment, Captivity: Asc. + Sun - Neptune
** Inheritance, Real Estate: Asc. + Moon - Saturn
** Marriage: Asc. + 7th - Venus
** Redemption: Sun + Moon - Asc.
** Self-undoing: Asc. + 12th - Neptune
** Sudden Parting: Asc. + Saturn - Uranus
** Vocation & Status: MC + Moon - Sun

Just some thoughts. Dave
 

Minderwiz

Just a couple of observations on Dave's list.

Firstly note that some parts make use of house cusps. Both Traditional and Full versions of Morinus allow you to add these - you will need the full version where the outer planets are used.

Secondly, just as there are various names for the same part, there are also various parts for the same name - the part of marriage is a good example. Again context and nuance are the keys. How you see marriage and importantly the characteristic of marriage that you are concerned with can make a difference to the calculation you choose - more of this later.

Finally, remember that you don't calculate lots/parts for the sake of it if you've used your full range of lots in one reading then you've grossly overdone if. For a general reading fortune and Spirit are sufficient - even the Arabs did not litter their natal readings with parts.

For a more selective reading then you will draw on your pool. But if you subject is interested in her marriage prospects, it's not really advisable to calculate the Hermetic lots as your first choice :). One or possibly two of the parts relating to marriage are usually quite sufficient.
 

dadsnook2000

The use of Lots/Parts

Yes, overuse of the Lots/Parts has to be avoided. If the objective of a chart reading is Marriage, to use one of Minderwiz's examples, then only the Part of Marriage might be used. And, as also noted by Minderwiz, even that has to be carefully considered as the components of the Part of Marriage might be wrong for some subjects.

When I used Princess Diana's charts in one small segment of my book, using the types of charts which I use, Venus was quite absent from a prominent chart placement! On the other hand, Jupiter and Saturn were emphasized, both in their natal form and in their transiting form. These charts read as being "arranged". Neptune was there as the fairytale planet, common at weddings. Sun and Moon were there. Venus wasn't.

The context of the life that the chart represents has to be considered. The questions being asked or the topics being explored need to determine what type of chart to use and how to read that chart.

At this point, while we are still at the start of our explorations, it would be helpful for some on the list to put their chart or suggest a chart to use which we can all comment on so that the discussion becomes related to astrology in action. Dave
 

214red

Wel the vertex is fairly modern being introduced by L. Edward Johndro in the 1930/40s It's not something I use, but Dave might be interested in taking that up in a separate thread.



According to Rudhyar, the point of illumination lies exactly opposite the Part of Fortune, so with my Fortuna being at 2 degrees Taurus, my point of illumination would be at 2 degrees Scorpio.

Rudhyar's rationale from this point is that it is conjunt the Ascendant at the Full Moon and he sees the Full Moon as a 'symbol of fulfilment in objective consciousness' Now I'm not quite sure what he means by that or whether he would know it when he saw it but I must admit I have problems with this point. Firstly Fortuna is derived from a relationship between Sun and Moon that by definition places it on the Ascendant (but not conjunct to it) at the New Moon and on the Descendant (but not conjunct to it) at the Full Moon. I don't see that the opposite point at the Full Moon has necessary meaning, but obvious questions are what does the point of illumination 'mean' at the New Moon, when it lies on the Descendant and what does it mean when it's neither New Moon or Full Moon? All that can really be said is that it's 'not the Lot of Fortune'


I'm not aware of the circumstances here, It depends on the natal position of Fortuna, and which planet is doing the transiting. But such an 'illumination' might not require a special point to engender such a situation. Incidentally there's a Part of Understanding and Wisdom cited by Al Biruni, which seems to serve the same purpose as 'the Point of Illumination' It's Ascendant + Sun - Saturn (by day). Perhaps Rudhyar sees a difference between 'understanding and wisdom' and 'illumination', if he did he would have been better creating a new Lot/Part to represent it.

I realise that those comments are probably not what you wanted and it's one of the reasons I originally decided to leave it to Dave to make a comment. Hopefully when he returns he will utterly disagree with me and put forward an alternative and, as usual.well argued, explanation.



Transits and Progressions to the Lots can be very useful in predictive work, especially those to the Lots of Fortune and Spirit (even more especially the former) and perhaps something we can explore in more detail later.
i always welcome your comments, mine werent too thought out too. but i have now discovered just how important that these points are, i went back to the meaning of the astrology glyphs and it suddenly hit me, that to understand these points you need to understand more about how they were concieved, like everything, you have to know the history of what, why and how.
i now have a theory on what the pof means due to its symbology, but in a esoteric sense as usual.

Thanks you anyways!

PS. i hope the book is out on kindle or Ipad Dave, i am really looking forward to it!