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philebus's Avatar
philebus  philebus is offline
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philebus 

Quote:
Originally Posted by C
What would be the point for me to convince you of anything ?
Im just offering a new perspective - you may give it a try...
...or not...
C
There are more perspectives on the origin and purpose of tarot than there have been books published. What matters to me is the evidence there is - or is not - to support them. You haven't presented any evidence for this one and as you don't seem to think there is any "point for [you] to convince [me] of anything" I shall have to remain one of those "not in the know" and will continue to promote that history and those games.
Top   #11
Bernice's Avatar
Bernice  Bernice is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by "C": So it would be nice if you could delete them - or tell me how to do so because Im kind of a Newcomer to all this Forum staff - no offense intended...
No offense taken "C". But in order to keep the thread posts free of off-topic discussion, please use private messaging. i.e. respond to a pm with a pm.

~ To Edit Your Post ~
At the bottom of every post that you write, on the right-hand side, there are two named links;

Edit Quote

You may click the Edit link to alter or remove the text in your post.

You will now be able to delete the 'email' postings by yourself.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Quote:
Originally posted by "C": Referring to your question...

I could just answer ...because thats the way it is... but this wouldnt be polite...

I dont know whether you read through the first ( English ) part of this Thread - there you might find some answers...
Perhaps I should have been more specific. I'll politely rephrase my query.
"What first alerted you to the idea that geomantic figures were encoded into the trump cards, particularly the Visconti-Sforza cards, aside from the fact that Filippo Maria Visconti was familiar with geomancy ?"

In response to your theory, here's an extract from your first post;

"An easy pair of the 16 figures to find among the Atu is the one called Laetitia ( Happiness ) and Tristitia ( Sadness ) -
Those are the common Latin names of this pair - Hugo Sanctaliensis calls Happiness BARBATUS RIDENS ( the laughing bearded man )...
With your new eyes you will see that nevertheless there are many bearded men pictured on the cards - there is only one mythical depiction of real living man with a really impressing beard - yet he is not laughing - but he is shown in such a way that life itself seems to be smiling upon him for his whole long life...
...and his counterpart Sadness is called by Hugo Sanctaliensis TRANSVERSUS DIMINITUS ( the reversed short - or young - man ) - with your new eyes this should be a quite easy one to detect...

So - there you have your first pair..."



For members who are unfamiliar with geomancy, it might be better if you were to pair the card name with the geomantic figure, then give an explanation for your choice. i.e:

Fool = Laetitia. *explanation*.


Bernice.
Top   #12
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Bernice  Bernice is offline
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Bernice 

Thank you for the pdf link (you advised page 41). The pdf explains a theory that the origins of geomancy may be astrology. However I found this page, (link below) to be more interesting.

Bernice.

P.S. I think the explanation text for figures 12 and 14 are probably a misprint.
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Top   #13
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Thanks for that Bee, I was about to link to that page myself.

It seems that C has set the membership (those that may be interested in investigating) a puzzle.
Top   #14
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Ross G Caldwell  Ross G Caldwell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernice

For members who are unfamiliar with geomancy, it might be better if you were to pair the card name with the geomantic figure, then give an explanation for your choice. i.e:

Fool = Laetitia. *explanation*.
I would guess that C is alluding to the Hermit as the Barbatus, and the Pendu as the Transversus diminitus.
Top   #15
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Bernice  Bernice is offline
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Ross: "I would guess that C is alluding to the Hermit as the Barbatus, and the Pendu as the Transversus diminitus."

Hi Ross, I would guess the same

But for members who are unfamiliar with the geomatic figures it would be better for "C" to explain, rather than leave them guessing.

Bee

Edit: Later.
If you read the pdf, "The Astrological Origin of Islamic Geomancy", it suggests that geomancy originates with Islamic peoples (Note: ...as did the playing cards. The Mamluk deck). So are we now considering that both the Pips and Trumps came to Europe from an Islamic origin?
Top   #16
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C, this forum has been through many theories, and from experience I can tell you that you will need evidence to support speculation here, you will be challenged or else ignored. Perhaps you have evidence, if so rather than leaving clues for the members to investigate (when they have their own interests to explore), I would suggest that you present it and leave it to the individual to make up their own mind.

There are many theories about the 22 Trumps, I was recently reading another where they are compared to the Christian Beatitudes, then there is the Bardic Theory etc etc
Top   #17
"C"  "C" is offline
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"C" 
to philebus...


...and thats exactly why I dont write a new book - Youve just to look at the cards - but in a whole other way as all of you were trained to do by teachers who didnt deserve that name...

Now one thing about "evidence" - how do You get evidence...

I get it by looking and thinking for myself and putting the pieces together - not by listening to someone and believing - or not - what he tells me...

To judge what he says I would again have to look for myself...

So why not start there in the first place - that would save both of us some time...

But naturally You can do as You like...

C
Top   #18
"C"  "C" is offline
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"C" 
to Bernice..


...I promise to behave in the future - I wasnt aware of that...

Thanks for the advice - I will delete the post with those e-mails on the 19th November - if this would be all right with you...

Actually for me it was the other way around - I knew the cards of T˛a and came to know the 16 geomantic Characters... and was stunned... I saw one pair clearly before me in the T˛a - THAT alerted me ( by the way it was the same pair you identified - Im impressed... )

And then I started looking for more evidence ( as philebus and Moonbow might call it... ) and step by step the whole beauty unfolded...

But I assure you - its a very long way - and this is only the first step...

That Filippo Maria Visconti was familiar with the 16 isnt quite that important - he had to be because - like you - he wouldnt have been able to understand the cards and what they were teaching him...

Now for your suggestion...

"For members who are unfamiliar with geomancy, it might be better if you were to pair the card name with the geomantic figure, then give an explanation for your choice."

Im really sorry - but thats not the way how it is done...
Not even Filippo was spared for that...

I was a little bit confused when I read your identifikation...

Fool = Laetitia

...but then to my relief I got to know that it was only a wild guess that you later corrected.


Now about your second post...

Maybe it is for Your astrological background that you find those things interesting - but at this level of introducing yourself to the cards from this angle it wouldnt get you very far - or You might even get lost...

Stick to the simple things for now - look for resemblances with the 16...

And naturally You and Ross are right about that pair...
Maybe you should consult my hints in the 1. LM ( Liber Mundi ) post once more and youll get another pair...

C
Top   #19
"C"  "C" is offline
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"C" 
to Ross G Caldwell...


...Wow - You have very sharp eyes...

As I told Bernice in the above thats exactly the way how it is done - and youve done right...

C
Top   #20

 




 


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