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earthair  earthair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregory View Post
What he said - I have been following this thread too, and I can't understand the point either. Is this simply that you are building a "model" VS on wood and we get to watch ? Or is there some deeper meaning that totally escapes me ?
I think the point is that he thinks there is a ubersized version of the game on a wall and a specific winning layout which will unlock magical mysteries.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Goldwetter View Post
I just replied in the sibling-topic on TH to another contributor and thought parts from that answer could be helping with understanding here too (4th page there).

>> Why is it that you insist that only the PMB is at issue here? <<

Because as you can see the evidential data are not publicly availabe and very specific for every sole deck.
The caliper of the PMB "cards" (who were obviously none because they were not made for a card play at the TABLE.) was not known to anyone because nobody measured it!

The caliper alone (not only my assumption but the real measured and confirmed caliper) would have made it impossible to use them in any regular "card play fashion".

The caliper wasn't at ANY time questioned and all people who care about Tarot hear/read everywhere that the PMB "cards" were handmade and used for gaming at a table (like I hear even Mr. Voelkle assuming that the people at the fresco in the Palazzo Borromeo do just that: PLAY with those treasures in a game with cards AT a table).

I did point out in the other thread (Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret > the exact place I don't know at the moment - but I can look!) that those persons are OBSERVING the "cards" and the WALL to find the right "card" for the next correct place in the already achieved pattern on the WALL on the thereat painted kilim structure with the Tarotée-Crossings - the net of lines who are regarded the playground of the 16 gods.

They were made ONLY for ONE specific "game" at the WALL of a room that had to have AT LEAST 10 feet high walls - what could be found only in the house of a very rich person.
To get this "game" on a regular big table - say in a tavern - the TdM (for instance) was invented. It got evolved and the nails were not needed anymore (because of the structure of TdM card 1/3 - the ladder).

I tried to make some readers familiar with the IDEA that decoding today is a scientific thing with certain requirements that can be taught and studied to an end. This code we are talking about here (with the caliper too) was known originally only to the Visconti family (and later the Sforza) who were in partly posession of a "dead" fragment since Ottone declared to have captured a "beast" and swore >> I will not violate the Snake's uses << when he was Archbishop of Milan.

Most of those things I've written already and much more. It seems to be my fault though to have not made myself clear enough. Please ask some specific questions!

I explained already that to my knowledge only the handmade Visconti-Sforza "cards" bear that kilim structure that is mirrored in the Tarotée - THAT was the whole point of the Tarotée-Thread... (...)

(...)... So I hope you understand that I really do not mean to be rude here - but what is the point of posting pictures and words when they are not used for following posts and/or replies.

I think I explained it here now in a sufficient way that and why the 74 survivors are the only possible subject for THIS topic. When they would be understood completely - and only then - it would be possible to COMPARE them with other "luxury cards (who - by the way LACK the substantial pattern to be READ - as an unbound book)". That was one of the premises of the Tarotée-Thread (...) and THIS thread (...) was announced as a prequel to that former thread.

I hope that helps?

Adrian
The problem is that the information is spread between 2 websites and many many pdfs/photos/diagrams. I think we've all understood that you think the cards couldn't be shuffled because the stack would be huge...but that does not prove they couldn't be swooshed around like dominos or Mahjong tiles.

I like your idea that they nailed them to the wall for a game, but please can you post your rules and game play here in this thread as I can't find it?

Why do you assume they were nailed as part of a game and not pinned to a wall for ornamental purposes many years after?

ETA

As my amusing youtube post was removed, some subsequent posts now make no sense, so I'll clarify-
The most obvious reason for large cards being nailed or pinned to a wall would be some sort of gameshow style card game, like Bruce Forsyth's Play Your Cards Right where contestants predict whether the new card in the line would be higher or lower than the previous card. Or a sort of Tarot Bingo where previously drawn trumps are displayed until someone gets a full set. Or maybe having no TV screens, games played with smaller version of the cards were 'broadcast' on the wall for the audience like professional poker.
Top   #21
Adrian Goldwetter  Adrian Goldwetter is offline
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Hi earthair - nice to see a new avatar around here.

First let me thank you for letting me into gregory's mind. I suppose with his permission because he was not so keen on giving me access when I begged him.

>> I think the point is that he thinks there is a ubersized version of the game on a wall and a specific winning layout which will unlock magical mysteries. <<

You are completely right!

I could not have said it better but probably no one would believe me if I said this so I don't - and now you did.
Thank you!

>> The problem is that the information is spread between 2 websites and many many pdfs/photos/diagrams. I think we've all understood that you think the cards couldn't be shuffled because the stack would be huge...but that does not prove they couldn't be swooshed around like dominos or Mahjong tiles. <<

I do not think of that as a problem - at least not for me. I think it helps flexibility.
The problem should be attention span in this case and lack of curiosity when it matters.

Do you - after you surely followed through to your best abilities here and there - really believe that it is only MY belief that keeps the original 74 "cards" from being shuffled?

Good point though with the "dominos or Mahjong tiles".
I've never thought about that!
Actually there is no use for thinking up an alternative method when I see how it is done properly or maybe I just lack the fantasy?

I pointed out though that they are so BIG all together (a page back with The GAMING BOARD) that your table had to be 3 X 3 m or nearly 10 x 10 feet and however you would plan to swoosh them around in any controllable manner you wouldn't be able to do that to all of them because you simply couldn't REACH them.

Obviously you could say now: Well - why not do the basket ball thing and just throw them where we want them... and so on...
But I don't think their whole brittle make-up would stand up to such gymnastic events.
What do you think?

>> I like your idea that they nailed them to the wall for a game, but please can you post your rules and game play here in this thread as I can't find it? <<

Good for you that I did do that already - in part at least - and when you read what I wrote here I'm sure you won't go with a hungry brain to bed - not tonight and not for the next... mmmh... lets say 2 - 3 years when you follow the links and leads and gain a little practice in "nailing".

Provided you don't have a day-job of course.
Should you be so lucky to have 1 you just have to triple your spare-time-apprenticeship.
Did you know that the bards of old with their rune-songs had to spent 20 springs & summers & autumns & winters without I-pod or pad before they were considered able?

What would you do without YT?

>> Why do you assume they were nailed as part of a game and not pinned to a wall for ornamental purposes many years after? <<

Good question! If you would know about cultural- and art-history you would know that first comes "the experience" in the "real world" and only afterwards this experience CAN become an ORNAMENT.
You can not imagine a RIVER before you see ONE.

RIVER > fret (Greek/meander)

So that was not only fun - but you know that - right?
((And I don't assume anything (OK that is not totally correct given the caliper) - that is the whole point.))

Adrian

P.S. Perhaps I should ask you what is your interest in Tarot and why are you here (on Aeclectic)?
You seem to have a personal interest in these matters. Would you tell me?

@ earthair's edit of the above post due to Alta's concerned edit of your amusing YT vid that I called in my now also removed amusing reply "non-entertainment" I will state here (although I do not know whether that is the correct procedure to deal with removed posts) that you are TOTALLY WRONG in your fast paced assumptions that only lead me to the conclusion that you did not read what I did write and suggested all along here and there with so many entertaining and - yes I will not stand back to say it: amusing AND EDUCATING JPGs referring to just that matter of "gaming". I'll think about a new and amusing way to explain this matter (not only obviously) to you. For the time being think of the "card" "game" on the wall with the BIG cards as a VIDEO GAME. In Latin VIDEO means I SEE. In the games you may probably know (but only the simpler ones that don't "learn" while you play) every game has an inbuilt path to success. A "walk-through" of many games you can watch on YT as well (some amusing!) and I do here just the same. There is only ONE path to the end-game. How was that? I'll think about it some more and will be back with a regular post that should explain in more depth. Pinky swear
Top   #22
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gregory  gregory is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Goldwetter View Post
First let me thank you for letting me into gregory's mind. I suppose with his permission because he was not so keen on giving me access when I begged him.
I am a lady person. And it's nothing to do with letting anyone into my mind - you or earthair - I just haven't the time to play games with people who try and get others to see into theirs. (my <never mind> was a post aimed at Abrac, by the way. Just so you know. I changed my mind, as it isn't his thread.)

earthair nailed it (along with Bruce Forsyth ) and it's a great relief to have it SAID. Whether or not people had have believed you - saying it right out would have saved a LOT of abstruse hints and might have led directly to discussion instead of needling. Miles of posts with images - you could have just said this in the first place, and asked for opinions. I shall dig our my various books on the VS and see what they have to say.
Top   #23
Adrian Goldwetter  Adrian Goldwetter is offline
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Since gregory is now away and hopefully digging up some worthy stuff from her "VS" collection I thought that we could go back on topic for some thoughts that matter:

Here is the KILIM pattern spread over a REAL wall:







I did use it in the already linked "Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret" on TH to garner some attention.
Yes - I admit it! BUT - as you see - it didn't work out... there.



If you care to read (and WATCH) more:

http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewto...=1044&start=50

This is the building in question on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliabad_Tower

This is about the there mentioned roots of that architectural wonder that was built in the 14th century that go BACK to the ancient Iran approximately 3500 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

This is about the rituals that were performed there and why and for what purpose (but I must warn half-wits because this is only for very hard boiled RESEARCHERS):

http://www.avesta.org/ritual/funeral.htm

This is the interior of the tower (like the others that ceased to be... )







You may (with a change of perspective and perception) NOW realize that the "assumed" "card" pattern of the PMB survivors with educated additions is a "lengthened" version of the same architectural layout (here as an example a JPG I did use in another context on TH already):







...if not: just ask and I'll make a new JPG - exclusively for you (!)

Adrian
Top   #24
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Alta  Alta is offline
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Moderator note:


Some posts have been removed from thread. I have been asked by the OP to be specific as to why:

1. If members wish to have personal discussions they need to go to the PM system. Asking personal questions and making personal comments to other posters is off topic and disruptive to discussion and as such will be removed.

2. Asking for comments, even demanding them, is also not allowed. People will post if they wish to, there is no obligation and if members wish to merely view without comment, that is fine.

3. Meta discussion covers all discussion not on the topic of the thread and has been removed.

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Alta  Alta is offline
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Moderator note:


All posts in this thread must be about the topic. Posts simply commenting on another posters abilities will continue to be removed and if this persists I am closing the thread.

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Top   #26
Adrian Goldwetter  Adrian Goldwetter is offline
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Thank you Alta.

Adrian
Top   #27
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Debra  Debra is offline
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Ok. Thanks for explaining your ideas, Adrian.

Here's how I see it.

I think it's probably true that these cards were hung on a wall.

Maybe it was just decoration. Maybe it was a game. Or something else. We do not know. There is no evidence either way.

We do not know if these cards were played with "in the hand" like we play cards today. Clearly they are too thick and too expensive to be shuffled like we do today with playing cards. There are MANY shuffling methods for cards (look on YouTube for "shuffle cards" and oh boy!). And there are ways to "mix" a deck of cards without shuffling.

Personally, I doubt that they were used in hand-held card games, simply because they are delicate artworks. I could be wrong.

I do not see any reason to believe the diamond pattern is symbolically important.

So that's how I see the history.
Top   #28
Adrian Goldwetter  Adrian Goldwetter is offline
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Thanks for your contribution Debra.

>> I think it's probably true that these cards were hung on a wall. <<

That's most definitely true because every "card" has a hole for hanging in - but not all are of the same condition and I started to point that out in the thread PDF for "Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret" on TH.
If you go to my OP here in this thread and read along you'll find it linked several times and the announcement that this thread is to be seen as a "prequel" to that thread on TH.
This model of the PMB "cards" I made simply to point at the situation that those specific measurements (caliper) were neither publicly available nor EVER taken - and so the assumption arose in the 1st place that they were indeed CARDS - what you can see now (exaggerated in a comical manner of course) is simply NOT TRUE.

Since the interest in TAROT was rekindled in the 18th century there was a rumor that they were a BOOK. An "unbound book of leaves for kings".

In the last decades scientists in all their supposed reason suggested (or better "found out") that there is no SECRET there withheld - what is simply NOT true - and all folklorist assumptions in the last centuries were just that: folk-lore of uneducated people who didn't know better.

With the DE-coding of the COPIALE it was shown - by scientists - that there is a rational even behind the weirdest things. On TH I use that work as an example to show the readers that there are RULES that must be known and followed when you want to DE-code something. The 1st thing is that you have to know the LANGUAGE some CODE is done in.

http://stp.lingfil.uu.se/~bea/copiale/

On TH there is more about that and only 9 thread pages so far.

http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewto...c2dbc222d7a555

It is a BIT complicated to rid the mind of former assumptions that were made by others to their best abilities but simply not in the (right) know that were taken to be true because they are "revered" experts and teachers. If you take the time and read more of the linked stuff you will see (I think) that this is not MY idea.

Did that help?

Adrian
Top   #29
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Debra  Debra is offline
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Thank you Adrian. I have followed your ideas on that other forum for quite some time. I am not convinced. I appreciate your effort.
Top   #30




 

 


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