Deck for kids - switch to Thoth?

My daughter often plays in the room as I "do my cards"...her usual request is " Can I hold your cards for you?" meaning the ones I have already dealt out, and written down....she loves to just hold them and look at them, even the Thoth. She has a strong sense of what scares her, and no single image in that deck bothers her at all. Snakes and frogs and lizards, in real life, bother her to no end, but the images on the cards (or anywhere else) do not upset, nor disturb her. She particulary loves the ladies on the Thoth, like the Empress, in all of her pink softness. She thinks the Empress is beautiful. My daughter is 5 yrs old.

As a person with a fear of snakes, I am aware that my fears may be passed on to my children, and so I do all that I can to get over it, to embrace the thing which I fear. I sculpt snakes a lot, the uroborus is a favorite of mine, and there is a very small one in my daughter's bedroom. My kids see snake images in their home all of the time.

So, anyhoo, while I agree about the Book Of Thoth not being suitable for children, the Crowley/Harris deck is imo, a beautiful thing to give to a person at any age. And the educational aspects of it would be quite broadening.

Oh, and btw, I think forteanajones is a dad.

hmmm..."mawkishness"..I had to look that one up. Just trying to present another point of view, albeit, what's wrong with America in your opinion. I have been married for 20 years and have 2 kids, one 11 and one 15. Parenting is very tough, and kids are only little a short time. Most kids can't handle harsh images. Tarot decks are very subjective. I own a Thoth deck, but I don't use it. I knew I would be the only one to feel this way, but she is asking for opinions...isn't that the question on the original post. I'm not saying anyone is a bad Mom, she should do what her heart tells her to do and what is best for her. When I ask for opinions I hope to get answers that make me think. I take a offense at being called a Victorian because I think the images on the Thoth deck are too strong for a nine year old! Crowley died a penniless drug addict who regretted his life (and that's the best thing I can say about him). I don't like his energy. Others can put that aside and see genius, that's fine. I can't.

Jlongo, welcome to Aeclectic! We are a passionate lot! Of course you have every right to your opinion.

I don't think I mentioned America. I was talking of Western culture in general. I am a European. Nor did I say you were Victorian: just that the widespread attitude of imposing sickly-sweet imagery on our children, and especially our girls, was inherited from the Victorians. It is general in our societies, and I am glad to when some parents resist it, because I think it is pernicious and leads to the opposite of what is aimed at. I agree we shouldn't expose children to gore - but as for Thoth imagery being harsh - can you give an example? How is the imagery too strong? And if a 9-year old child has already shown a preference for that imagery, without (I presume) adverse effects (dreams, etc.) - does that not mean it is not too strong for that little girl?

I agree with Jlongo.
I think that it makes no sense to shelter our children with sickly sweet things either because they will need to be realistic and tough in this world if nothing else. However, we need to take into account how a child is developing and what is appropriate at that age. A nine year old may be drawn to many things and is highly influenced by parents. If she sees that Mum is having a hard time with the Inner Child cards then she will be affected by that. Perhaps her wanting to share this interest with mum becomes more pleasing if she follows mum's path. For me I would try to learn the Inner Child deck with her, or one that is less complicated and more positive than the toth. Really it should not be looked as as taking time away from your own path, but merging with your daughter's to give her a foundation. It is such an honor to give to your child and you will both learn together. For argument's sake, let's say a nine year old sees a gun tucked away for protection,it surely does not mean we let them play with it just because they show interest. Not saying the toth is a gun mind you, but we can not always predict what affect anything will have on a child especially advanced concepts that they may not have the experience and maturity to process. Why complicate it at this young age. I would start slow and let her move on as she matures.

Yes, I am a mother. Peace.

forteanajones said:

I'm going with the Thoth mini, with the understanding that I could be trading image quality/clarity for the easier handling for smaller hands. We can always go bigger if that makes sense. I love the Tree of Life idea! Might be a bit challenging with Thoth for a kid, but I'll keep the Sephiroth deck in mind.

This segways into what activities other parents are developing to educate their tarot-oriented children. Putting together stories with the cards is one interesting idea, and there's simple readings and conversations, but I haven't had the time to sit down and brainstorm on other stuff. I'd love to be able to quickly introduce the basics without overwhelming her with minutia, at which point she could take over for a while and practice.

Right now she just watches me do simple spreads and admires the pictures, and despite her latent abilities she still doesn't fully get why my own idea of magic and spirit can be 'real' if it lacks all the Potter-style special effects.

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A classic tarot activity at any age is to color a deck or draw your own cards. You could photocopy your larger version of the Thoth for your daughter and let her go at it. You could even color together!!

Another activity is to select a card and take turns telling a story about it.
While the minors aren't illustrated in the same sense that the RWS minors are, I find the Thoth minors very evocative, particularly the cups.

Personally, I find the artwork in the Thoth excellent in both design and taste. Imo, it is far less disturbing than Bosch or even Michelangelo (particularly the Christ tableau on the wall of the Sistine Chapel). It's nudity is very reserved as compared with classic statues, the sort the Victorians draped over...ahem.. unsuitable parts. I do understand a concern about Crowley and his philosophy and therefore strongly suggest you do not provide his biography with the deck nor any books on Thelemic topics (you know the one I mean).

In answer to someone's question, yes, I have a child and when last I looked I was his mother.

I have been tossing this issue around while walking the mall school shopping with my daughter, and I guess I just feel like there are some great decks out there with positive imagery. I can agree that the Thoth is artistic, but it is certainly not one of those filled with positive images. I think it is important for a child to start out with those positive images. Take the Death card in the Thoth, and the death card in the whimsical tarot. The image is of sleeping beauty as opposed to a contorted double-jointed black grim reaper with scorpions and snakes. This is not a deep thinker issue, it's pretty obvious. Why give a child such a complicated thing when there are soooo many other options?

Helvetica, I am sorry for being sarcastic. I appreciate your response. I particuliarly think the Death card as mentioned is "scary." Also many of the court cards and the some major arcana cards have people that look like Disney Villians! I must also say that I own this deck and I used it heavily at one time (I think I bought it around 1983) I look at it occasionally now. I like the more geometric cards. I guess overall though, I don't find any love in the Thoth deck.

jlongo said:

I don't find any love in the Thoth deck.

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Love is all through the Thoth deck. That is the law after all And I find many of the images warm and extremely humorous. While the reaper of Death is a scary figure, I don't find him more frightening than the RWS reaper, or the RWS Devil. Just more dynamic.

I would like to quote Lady Harris, and how she described the Lust card to a small child at an exhibition of the paintings. It is an excellent example I think, the Lust card being on of the potentially more offensive cards, to those that wish to be offended by Crowley.

Lady Harris said:

Well you must understand the feeling of it. Now how do you feel if you see nice chocolates & there, you get them & how good they taste. That is a picture of how you feel about those chocolates.

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Lust certainly is an adult card, but one easily understood in the language of children.

Of course the Thoth deck (as with any deck) has the potential to be frightening to a small child, and for many children even older than 9 it may be inappropriate. But studied by a child, guided by their parent, I think it represents an excellent opportunity to have those discussion that will help form you child’s understanding of the world. There is nothing in Thoth, that is not matched or exceeded by the Bible or in fairy tales (for example) and yet that has been bedtime stories for children for hundreds of years (in fact most of the frightening imagery is taken directly from the Bible!).

I have been thinking reading through this thread about 9 year olds that I know. Most say things at least as shocking as anything in the Thoth deck. I of course would argue strongly that the Thoth deck is just as positive as any other, however being far more evocatively drawn it does say its message loudly. How appropriate this is for a particular child, I think depends on how competent the parent is to guide them in the use of the deck. Children have a wonderful ability to let things that are over their head, go right past them. I think the anxiety of the parent about a facet of the deck is far more likely to register than any feature of the deck itself.

Would opinions be different if we were talking about a 9 year old boy, rather than a 9 year old girl? Try comparing the most popular computer games in terms of violence and gore to the Thoth. I certainly know which one I find more offensive.

And yes, I have no children, but have worked with children from 6-12 frequently and regularly. I often get asked the questions that children are too afraid to ask their parents. How wonderful it would be for there to be a tool that would facilitate open conversation between children and their parents...

I too also sat this afternoon and thought about this thread - My son is of an age now, nearly 9, and he wants his own tarot deck. He also has spent many hours seeing me work with my cards, mainly RWS inspired. So I thought I would get my mini Thoth out and ask his opinion of them - he loved the size, gave them a few shuffles - I asked him what he thought about the designs of the deck seeing that he's used to seeing fully illustrated Minors in the RWS style.

The only comment he made of the deck was that he didn't like the naked people - he has a thing about seeing nudity in my cards. But he said that if they were taken out he'd like them better - then he moved onto my Gill and saw the Star lol.

I think I may get him the International Icon Tarot as none of the childrens decks interest him

Perhaps the images are/can be a bit scary (I haven't really looked at the Thoth deck myself, but am thinking about getting a deck for reference purposes), but maybe it's because the kids are seeing mom using the decks that it seems alright, even at such a young age -- kinda like, mom wouldn't be doing something bad and she uses the deck often, so there's nothing to be afriad of...???

Fantastic balanced discussion. Jlongo, your concerns actually mirrored my own even though I had already managed to get rid of that terrible Crowley aftertaste. His personal behavior really does bear no relationship with the Thoth deck, although that kind of resonance will likely persist until one applies a healthy swig of Lon Milo Duquette mouthwash or something along those lines. Maybe this consideration is another justification for showing a kid the Thoth before they ever have a chance to hear about Crowley the man (of course she may learn about his life from someone else).

Negative imagery is naturally an area I've given a bit of thought to, being a dad. Playstation 2, well, yes, she won't be touching a computer game or console system for a few more years (this takes willpower, as I'm a gamer myself!). Even Power Puff Girls had to go, due to ideas about constant strife and struggle and idiot adults. Plus, if you're intimidated by the Thoth Death card, I'll avoid linking a photo of one of that show's villains named "Him" who gives me the heebie-jeebies. And don't get me started on Disney....

That said, my girl does seem to have a certain special fascination with darker subjects and we do have to watch what she's into carefully sometimes, because as fun as it is during the day, her nighttime paranoia and nightmares can be a real problem.

Of course, it doesn't help that one of her closer friends is allowed to read and watch anything and everything she wants, has an eidetic memory, and relates the full plot outlines for stuff like Anacondas: The Hunt for the Blood Orchid. And to think these kids go to a Waldorf school...sheesh.

Wizzle, your suggestions are excellent. I think I shall commandeer a copier at work some Saturday in the near future.

Edit: oh and Scion's book recommendations were awesome. Picked up a couple of those and started Greek Myths on Saturday. (Ten times better than the Osborne version, I think).