The Greek Lots/Arabic Parts

214red

Let's me out then :)

However I'll have a go

You both are experts, I have learnt and continue to learn a lot from both of you, don't try and wriggle out of it, you and dave get to be the AT forum astrology yodas :)
 

Minderwiz

You both are experts, I have learnt and continue to learn a lot from both of you, don't try and wriggle out of it, you and dave get to be the AT forum astrology yodas :)

Get out of it I cannot,
. Do it I will
;)

I was holding off in case Dave wanted a go. If he's still busy with his book I'll take it up tomorrow
 

Minderwiz

For Nikki

I've just done the Lots of Fortune and Spirit and the 5 Hermetic Lots. More can be added if you want to explore a particular area of life.

I've attached a table and a chart to show where the lie in more detail. I'm going to use Whole Signs, as that was the original system used with the Lots and apart from Fortune, almost exclusively so.

The positions of the two key Lots are:

Fortune: 10 Leo 39
Spirit: 26 Aqu 07

This means that your Sun rules Fortune, Saturn rules Spirit - a really interesting contrast.

Fortune lies your fourth house using Whole Signs, and has the Venus/Saturn conjunction near by and is within their orb even by modern standards and it's also conjoined by Mercury in the Hellenistic system of whole sign aspects. Fortune is the flow of social, cultural, economic trends that affect your life, either for good or ill. It also gives some indications about health. The placement in the fourth, is a good one It's ruler the Sun, lies in the third conjunct the MC, the modern cusp of the fourth. The conjunction with Saturn, Venus and Mercury is going to .be significant. The Sun is not particularly strong by essential dignity but given it's placement on the MC fortune is likely to smile rather than frown - as the Sun is peregrine, don't expect a large lottery win though.

Spirit lies in your 10th house (again using Whole Signs). It's ruler, Saturn lies in your fourth as we have seen. It therefore opposes the Lot that it rules, and it is also opposed by Mercury and Venus. Spirit suggests a definite tension between career and home when it comes to taking decisions and trying to influence and shape your future. Both are key areas of life. Saturn is in detriment, so whilst it is well placed by house, it is not very dignified at all. Influencing what goes on through your own efforts will not be easy. to say the least. The main issue might well be 'fear' or a feeling of fatalism - that there's nothing that can be done. If so then that is something to cast aside, placed in the tenth means that you can heavily influence your career by your own efforts.

In the next post I'll say something about the other lots and also something about forecasts based on Fortune and Spirit
 

dadsnook2000

My use of the Part of Fortune

For the most part, my use of the Part of Fortune (PoF) has been with cyclic charts not natal charts. In particular, the cyclic charts concerned are "Moon-to-Sun Return" charts wherein the transiting Moon conjoins the natal Sun -- or where the transiting Moon opposes the natal Sun.

First, my natal chart's PoF is in 12 Gemini, the 12th house. Other than a semi-square to my Pluto, it has no obvious aspects until one examines a variety of harmonic charts. As to others, my PoF conjoins an old friends natal Moon. We knew each other in kindergarten and first grade it seems, as she and I both attended the same neighborhood school. We met again in the early 1970's and have been the very best of friends since. As far as I can see, nobody in my family has planets at that location.

"Return" charts occur when a conjoining takes place. The "cyclic" chart (any cyclic chart) takes place as an extension of the return chart. Returns, by definition, are cyclic. The PoF in these charts takes on a different dimension than in a natal chart and can be interpreted somewhat differently.

This is why I say that the Moon-to-Sun relationship reflects how we balance our Sun and Moon characteristics and this is transferred to the Ascendant-to-PoF relationship WHEN a planet is found there. Keep in mind that the Sun, Moon, PoF and chart angles move continuously during the month. The PoF will contact all natal planets and most transiting planets in any given 28 or 29 days. In the Return chart or in any of the advancing daily charts when the PoF contacts a natal or transiting planet (within 6 degrees, half the Moon's daily travel), the Ascendant will find it useful to express itself through the characteristics of that planet.

An example would be the the January 9, 2012 Moon-to-Sun Return chart for the Italian cruise ship Costa Concordia which ran aground and capsized a few days later. In that chart, the PoF was on the Descendant angle suggesting that relationships with others (by the Captain as human representative of the ship) would be an issue. Looking further we find that the ship launching MC was at the Ascendant; the ships status and image would be addressed in some way. On the 23rd of January, when the ship struck rocks and capsized a few hours later, the PoF was in the 8th house, opposing transiting Mercury and Pluto (both conjoined within 39 minutes of arc) in the 2nd house. Investments, shared resources, life and death --- all of the typical 8th house meanings -- were involved with cataclysmic decisions and movements (Mercury and Pluto) regarding 2nd house meanings (self-esteem, confidence, that which we take pleasure in having)

I don't want to go further with the rest of the chart's delineation here, but you see the point of how the PoF can show how the ship's status and image (MC at the return Asc.) was expressed in terms of the PoF and Mercury/Pluto.

So, all of this goes back to what has been said many times.
** Essential interpretive meanings need to be nuanced to fit the context of a situation when you are working with different types of charts.
** When working with any chart except a natal chart, the symbolism of the planets and other components is often very basic --- the keywords in many text books are often quite adequate to describe that the situation is.
** In natal charts, which can be used for a variety of needs, one has to adjust the words attached to the symbols more carefully to fit the question at hand. How one might use several pages of interpretations in a book to fit a particular subject's chart is a challenge. It is often far more difficult to give a natal chart reading than any other kind of reading, in my opinion.

Again, I would encourage any of the list members to submit their own chart data and comment, as well as ask for comments, on the PoF or any other part in their chart. We can afford to be a bit vulnerable here if its serves our learning experience in astrology. Dave
 

Minderwiz

In this post I’ll introduce a new lot and then look at how the lots relate to fortune and spirit and what we can deduce from them Also I’ll take a look at forecasts based on Nikki’s lots.

The new lot is the Lot of Exaltation and it’s used to derive more information from the Lots of Fortune and Spirit. Exaltation here relates to the exaltation degrees of the Sect Lord, either the Sun in day births or the Moon in night births. Their exaltation degrees are 19 Aries (Sun) and 2 Taurus (Moon). As Nikki’s is a night birth the formula is:

Ascendant + 2 Taurus – Moon; In Nikki’s case this gives a location of 15 Taurus. It can be added in Morinus using the drop down boxes for degrees.

Now if we take Fortune as marking the first (whole sign) house – then Exaltation is in the tenth House (and the firs house of the radical chart). The tenth House is a strong placement and this also clearly has some implications for Nikki’s career The Lot is squared by Saturn the ruler of the Lot of Spirit and conjoined by the exalted Moon, the South Node and Jupiter. This is rather a mixed bag, so it isn’t going to be wholly beneficial. On balance though being with it’s Almuten, the Moon it’s likely to have a positive association.

Of the Hermetic Lots, three are angular to the Lot of Fortune, (Necessity, Nemesis and Victory). Courage is in an eleventh House sextile and Eros is in a fifth House trine relationship. So all Lots are well placed relative to Fortune.

As Spirit in in a seventh House relationship to Fortune, all Lots are favourable plaed relative to it.

Given the strong placements of the Lots, we should perhaps expect that each will add a positive and fortunate dimension to Nikki’s natal chart. This is to an extent reduced by the weak dignity of the rulers.

The Sun is in an twelfth House relationship to Fortune and it’s Peregrine. The third house is not a bad placement read from the Ascendant but the twelfth house relative to Fortune does detract from the overall sense of well being in the chart.

Venus at least has dignity by Terms, and the Moon as Almuten of Necessity, Nemesis and Exaltation is the most dignified planet in the chart but these are not the key lots for success. Jupiter as the ruler of Eros is Peregrine, Mercury as ruler of Courage is also Peegrine and Saturn ruler of Spirit is in Detriment.

This chart suggest that whilst things are in the right place, getting the best our of them is going to require some effort. However that effort will be rewarded to a real extent.

If we look at zodiacal releasing from Spirit, we can perhaps see where Nikki’s choices affect her life, especially from the point of view of career (Spirit lies in the tenth house). The current major period began in early 2006 but is probably at it’s best around now,( began around August 2010) as it is ruled by the Moon, the most dignified and best placed planet (it’s in the first of the radix, tenth from Fortune and is in Exaltation and Triplicity. This period is due to end around September this year, when rulership passes to the Sun.

Fortune is uses as a key significators in forecasting. The next Primary Direction involving Fortune comes approximately this September, when fortune comes to the sextile of Mercury. Mercury rules the second house of financial resources and moveable property – so are you due for a rise in September or a change of responsibility leading to more pay (remember a new Spirit period begins then, so this is not necessarily all good – more pay may be associated with a role that you don’t particularly enjoy).

Lastly Fortune is also one of the key points used in Profections. This year has been good (the year commencing at your last birthday) You current profected chart is your natal chart but in July it will move into an inconjunct position to your natal chart – hopefully this will lead to consolidation but it is unlikely to lead to expansion.
 

Minderwiz

An example would be the the January 9, 2012 Moon-to-Sun Return chart for the Italian cruise ship Costa Concordia which ran aground and capsized a few days later. In that chart, the PoF was on the Descendant angle suggesting that relationships with others (by the Captain as human representative of the ship) would be an issue. Looking further we find that the ship launching MC was at the Ascendant; the ships status and image would be addressed in some way. On the 23rd of January, when the ship struck rocks and capsized a few hours later, the PoF was in the 8th house, opposing transiting Mercury and Pluto (both conjoined within 39 minutes of arc) in the 2nd house. Investments, shared resources, life and death --- all of the typical 8th house meanings -- were involved with cataclysmic decisions and movements (Mercury and Pluto) regarding 2nd house meanings (self-esteem, confidence, that which we take pleasure in having)

This is a very interesting example - as it applies not to a person but to a ship, and we do spend a lot of time on natal to the exclusion of other branches. One of the issues which comes to mind immediately is 'what is the natal chart for the Costa Concordia?'

There are a number of possible answers:

The chart cast for the time the ship was ordered - 19 January 2004
The chart cast for its launch (which you mention) - 2 September 2005
The chart cast for its legal acquisition - 30 June 2006
The chart cast for its christening (by Eva Herzagova) - 7 July 2006
The chart cast for its maiden voyage - 14 July 2006

Which is right? In a real sense all of them are right showing its gestation from the placing of the order (seed) till it's independant actions in the world - maiden voygage. Traditionally the launch has been seen as the 'birth moment' for ships, yet usually this is immediately preceded by the naming ceremony. Also lengthy fitting out periods which now also precede the owner getting their hands on the ship also adds a new dimension. That's what makes the case so fascinating for the Astrologer.

There's issues of time and place - some of these are easier than others, for example we know where it was launched (Genoa) and we know where it was christened (Civitavecchia) but the timing of these is not readily available. When it comes to order and acquisition there's even a problem with location. Carnival Corporation is dual listed with headquarters in Miami, FL and Southampton, England and even if we can allocate one or other of these to the event, where actually did the legal transactions occur? (My guess would be Trieste the base of the Shipbuilders).



I don't want to go further with the rest of the chart's delineation here, but you see the point of how the PoF can show how the ship's status and image (MC at the return Asc.) was expressed in terms of the PoF and Mercury/Pluto.

Yes I do get the point but it would be interesting to explore this case in another thread. I did think of doing an event chart at the time, but things were busy on the domestic scene at the time. I think it could be quite illuminating in the application of Astrology to a significant international event.
 

214red

For the most part, my use of the Part of Fortune (PoF) has been with cyclic charts not natal charts. In particular, the cyclic charts concerned are "Moon-to-Sun Return" charts wherein the transiting Moon conjoins the natal Sun -- or where the transiting Moon opposes the natal Sun.

First, my natal chart's PoF is in 12 Gemini, the 12th house. Other than a semi-square to my Pluto, it has no obvious aspects until one examines a variety of harmonic charts. As to others, my PoF conjoins an old friends natal Moon. We knew each other in kindergarten and first grade it seems, as she and I both attended the same neighborhood school. We met again in the early 1970's and have been the very best of friends since. As far as I can see, nobody in my family has planets at that location.

"Return" charts occur when a conjoining takes place. The "cyclic" chart (any cyclic chart) takes place as an extension of the return chart. Returns, by definition, are cyclic. The PoF in these charts takes on a different dimension than in a natal chart and can be interpreted somewhat differently.

This is why I say that the Moon-to-Sun relationship reflects how we balance our Sun and Moon characteristics and this is transferred to the Ascendant-to-PoF relationship WHEN a planet is found there. Keep in mind that the Sun, Moon, PoF and chart angles move continuously during the month. The PoF will contact all natal planets and most transiting planets in any given 28 or 29 days. In the Return chart or in any of the advancing daily charts when the PoF contacts a natal or transiting planet (within 6 degrees, half the Moon's daily travel), the Ascendant will find it useful to express itself through the characteristics of that planet.

An example would be the the January 9, 2012 Moon-to-Sun Return chart for the Italian cruise ship Costa Concordia which ran aground and capsized a few days later. In that chart, the PoF was on the Descendant angle suggesting that relationships with others (by the Captain as human representative of the ship) would be an issue. Looking further we find that the ship launching MC was at the Ascendant; the ships status and image would be addressed in some way. On the 23rd of January, when the ship struck rocks and capsized a few hours later, the PoF was in the 8th house, opposing transiting Mercury and Pluto (both conjoined within 39 minutes of arc) in the 2nd house. Investments, shared resources, life and death --- all of the typical 8th house meanings -- were involved with cataclysmic decisions and movements (Mercury and Pluto) regarding 2nd house meanings (self-esteem, confidence, that which we take pleasure in having)

I don't want to go further with the rest of the chart's delineation here, but you see the point of how the PoF can show how the ship's status and image (MC at the return Asc.) was expressed in terms of the PoF and Mercury/Pluto.

So, all of this goes back to what has been said many times.
** Essential interpretive meanings need to be nuanced to fit the context of a situation when you are working with different types of charts.
** When working with any chart except a natal chart, the symbolism of the planets and other components is often very basic --- the keywords in many text books are often quite adequate to describe that the situation is.
** In natal charts, which can be used for a variety of needs, one has to adjust the words attached to the symbols more carefully to fit the question at hand. How one might use several pages of interpretations in a book to fit a particular subject's chart is a challenge. It is often far more difficult to give a natal chart reading than any other kind of reading, in my opinion.

Again, I would encourage any of the list members to submit their own chart data and comment, as well as ask for comments, on the PoF or any other part in their chart. We can afford to be a bit vulnerable here if its serves our learning experience in astrology. Dave

very interesting dave! i do have both a Mars return and a jupiter return in may, would those pof be a better ones to look at?
 

214red

I've just done the Lots of Fortune and Spirit and the 5 Hermetic Lots. More can be added if you want to explore a particular area of life.

I've attached a table and a chart to show where the lie in more detail. I'm going to use Whole Signs, as that was the original system used with the Lots and apart from Fortune, almost exclusively so.

The positions of the two key Lots are:

Fortune: 10 Leo 39
Spirit: 26 Aqu 07

This means that your Sun rules Fortune, Saturn rules Spirit - a really interesting contrast.

Fortune lies your fourth house using Whole Signs, and has the Venus/Saturn conjunction near by and is within their orb even by modern standards and it's also conjoined by Mercury in the Hellenistic system of whole sign aspects. Fortune is the flow of social, cultural, economic trends that affect your life, either for good or ill. It also gives some indications about health. The placement in the fourth, is a good one It's ruler the Sun, lies in the third conjunct the MC, the modern cusp of the fourth. The conjunction with Saturn, Venus and Mercury is going to .be significant. The Sun is not particularly strong by essential dignity but given it's placement on the MC fortune is likely to smile rather than frown - as the Sun is peregrine, don't expect a large lottery win though.

Spirit lies in your 10th house (again using Whole Signs). It's ruler, Saturn lies in your fourth as we have seen. It therefore opposes the Lot that it rules, and it is also opposed by Mercury and Venus. Spirit suggests a definite tension between career and home when it comes to taking decisions and trying to influence and shape your future. Both are key areas of life. Saturn is in detriment, so whilst it is well placed by house, it is not very dignified at all. Influencing what goes on through your own efforts will not be easy. to say the least. The main issue might well be 'fear' or a feeling of fatalism - that there's nothing that can be done. If so then that is something to cast aside, placed in the tenth means that you can heavily influence your career by your own efforts.

In the next post I'll say something about the other lots and also something about forecasts based on Fortune and Spirit

its interesting because my MC is now on my part of spirit, and what am i doing? getting ready to go public with my vocational work with spirit:)
I have had issues in the past between work and home life, infact i discarded home life for work on many occasions, and its only in the past few years have i found a bit more balance and have also sat back more and allowed things to come to me. the balance work has come to the forefront because of the new stuff i am working on too, so currently i have 2 jobs and so therefore if i hadnt have worked on it, i wouldnt be able to maintain a relationship too.

i dont really play the lottery so i never expect to win it, and in the past i couldnt be pessimistic about it, but i am usually a smiler, and more optmistic then pessimistic. i think thats only because i have done alot of work on myself to enable me to not fear the future and also know what i can change now and what i cant , so i let things go when needed.
my health was bad until i was 19, and then the root cause was dealt with and now my health is robust but my immune system is damaged so i need to look after my diet more then most, but apart from that i fairly healthy.

thank you!
 

214red

In this post I’ll introduce a new lot and then look at how the lots relate to fortune and spirit and what we can deduce from them Also I’ll take a look at forecasts based on Nikki’s lots.

The new lot is the Lot of Exaltation and it’s used to derive more information from the Lots of Fortune and Spirit. Exaltation here relates to the exaltation degrees of the Sect Lord, either the Sun in day births or the Moon in night births. Their exaltation degrees are 19 Aries (Sun) and 2 Taurus (Moon). As Nikki’s is a night birth the formula is:

Ascendant + 2 Taurus – Moon; In Nikki’s case this gives a location of 15 Taurus. It can be added in Morinus using the drop down boxes for degrees.

Now if we take Fortune as marking the first (whole sign) house – then Exaltation is in the tenth House (and the firs house of the radical chart). The tenth House is a strong placement and this also clearly has some implications for Nikki’s career The Lot is squared by Saturn the ruler of the Lot of Spirit and conjoined by the exalted Moon, the South Node and Jupiter. This is rather a mixed bag, so it isn’t going to be wholly beneficial. On balance though being with it’s Almuten, the Moon it’s likely to have a positive association.

Of the Hermetic Lots, three are angular to the Lot of Fortune, (Necessity, Nemesis and Victory). Courage is in an eleventh House sextile and Eros is in a fifth House trine relationship. So all Lots are well placed relative to Fortune.

As Spirit in in a seventh House relationship to Fortune, all Lots are favourable plaed relative to it.

Given the strong placements of the Lots, we should perhaps expect that each will add a positive and fortunate dimension to Nikki’s natal chart. This is to an extent reduced by the weak dignity of the rulers.

The Sun is in an twelfth House relationship to Fortune and it’s Peregrine. The third house is not a bad placement read from the Ascendant but the twelfth house relative to Fortune does detract from the overall sense of well being in the chart.

Venus at least has dignity by Terms, and the Moon as Almuten of Necessity, Nemesis and Exaltation is the most dignified planet in the chart but these are not the key lots for success. Jupiter as the ruler of Eros is Peregrine, Mercury as ruler of Courage is also Peegrine and Saturn ruler of Spirit is in Detriment.

This chart suggest that whilst things are in the right place, getting the best our of them is going to require some effort. However that effort will be rewarded to a real extent.

If we look at zodiacal releasing from Spirit, we can perhaps see where Nikki’s choices affect her life, especially from the point of view of career (Spirit lies in the tenth house). The current major period began in early 2006 but is probably at it’s best around now,( began around August 2010) as it is ruled by the Moon, the most dignified and best placed planet (it’s in the first of the radix, tenth from Fortune and is in Exaltation and Triplicity. This period is due to end around September this year, when rulership passes to the Sun.

Fortune is uses as a key significators in forecasting. The next Primary Direction involving Fortune comes approximately this September, when fortune comes to the sextile of Mercury. Mercury rules the second house of financial resources and moveable property – so are you due for a rise in September or a change of responsibility leading to more pay (remember a new Spirit period begins then, so this is not necessarily all good – more pay may be associated with a role that you don’t particularly enjoy).

Lastly Fortune is also one of the key points used in Profections. This year has been good (the year commencing at your last birthday) You current profected chart is your natal chart but in July it will move into an inconjunct position to your natal chart – hopefully this will lead to consolidation but it is unlikely to lead to expansion.
i will digest and feedback later today, thank you!