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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcimer
Actually there is one other card - and ONLY one other card - that has a lateral division on it. That card is card XVII, The Star. It sits, incongruously, alongside The Emperor at Chesed. Take a good look at it. You should be able to see it. It is the horizon of the "Great Sea" she is pouring the Amrita into with the celestial globe and abyss above it. Significantly it is at the bottom of the card. There is nothing forced in seeing this division I hope you'll agree...

Of course it throws the door wide open to that old chesnut about tzaddi is not The Star. Well maybe it aint The Emperor either!
Getting back to your original topic, Dulcimer old chap....

I think your idea concerning the pictorial division in some of the cards has merit, and I do plan to quantumplate on this ordering as soon as I get a moment to myself (fatherhood can be soooo demanding, especially for one with a Cancerian Sun in the 4th House.... ).

However, I think that there is something wonderful that the two most contentious cards in the Book of Thoth sit together in Chesed. I like them sitting together, especially when there is so much controversy surrounding them. It has eased my aching brain after all these words concerning stars and fish-hooks and windows and ox-goads and red herrings to know that ol' Big Red is nooking up with the the wet goddess in such a warm and wonderful bed such as 'Mercy'....

And really, if Selene couldn't shack up in the closet of Daath with the virginal Priestess, then the Empress is just as scrummy for that little union. In fact, I think the Empress is rather under-rated by Big Al - he clearly had some Freudian issues going on... LOL
I kinda like the harmony there, as opposed to Moon & Star. Again, must have something to do with the whole 21-numerology thing.

Which reminds me: is there a numerological significance to 21 (other than it is the number of 'numbered' trumps in the Tarot)? 3x7; 1+2+3+4+5+6....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhorse
LOL
Yes, but 'Heh' corresponds with the astrological sign of Aries.
And the Emperor clearly shows ram-type arian symbolism.
So how can the Star be related to Aries?

This is getting to be like a school yard argument... "no it isn't!" ... "yes it is!"... "no it isn't!"... "yes it is!"... and so on and so on, ad infinitum....

Exactly my and Kwaw's point in posts #46 - #51 in the The Star Card thread. But apparently its a "non-issue". These Thelemicans show some pretty nifty footwork when it comes to this one lol.
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Forgot to mention it Aloba, but thanks for that excellant link. It may be the only one you've got (which I don't believe) but its a stonker. I'm going to have to spend some time giving it some proper study. (Could have done with it years ago!). Thanks again dude .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcimer
Exactly my and Kwaw's point in posts #46 - #51 in the The Star Card thread. But apparently its a "non-issue". These Thelemicans show some pretty nifty footwork when it comes to this one lol.
Thelemican!? You've just invented a new word. Or is it a Thelemite who runs a pub?

Back on topic.....

From the Sepher Yetzirah chapter 5:
1. God produced Hé predominant in Speech, crowned it, combined and formed with it Aries in the Universe, Nisan in the Year, and the right foot of Man.

And because of that we are essentially stuck with it because you can't tamper with ancient texts because they knew better than us didn't they?

A interesting question? Did the original writer(s) of the Sepher Yetzirah intend their correspondences to be pasted, top to bottom, on the Kircher Tree of Life? I think not....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhorse
Getting back to your original topic, Dulcimer old chap....

I think your idea concerning the pictorial division in some of the cards has merit, and I do plan to quantumplate on this ordering as soon as I get a moment to myself (fatherhood can be soooo demanding, especially for one with a Cancerian Sun in the 4th House.... ).

However, I think that there is something wonderful that the two most contentious cards in the Book of Thoth sit together in Chesed. I like them sitting together, especially when there is so much controversy surrounding them. It has eased my aching brain after all these words concerning stars and fish-hooks and windows and ox-goads and red herrings to know that ol' Big Red is nooking up with the the wet goddess in such a warm and wonderful bed such as 'Mercy'....

And really, if Selene couldn't shack up in the closet of Daath with the virginal Priestess, then the Empress is just as scrummy for that little union. In fact, I think the Empress is rather under-rated by Big Al - he clearly had some Freudian issues going on... LOL
I kinda like the harmony there, as opposed to Moon & Star. Again, must have something to do with the whole 21-numerology thing.

I'm very glad you're getting something out of it, Windhorse. Even my friend Aeon418 thinks there is something in it. Which I think is a seal of approval.

Yeah. Maybe I got caught up in the horizontal line thing too much. With all that geometry going on (see Aloba's link) I might be seeing things. Even I can find a good reason for keeping things as they are. I'm going to have to, as you say, quantumplate the matter some more.

However, if you're interested (if you're not then look away now) my notes on Chesed include the following. Remember I write this with Empress in place of Star in the sephirah:

CHESED
Jupiter is ruler here and the Sephirah means Love on a Spiritual basis; compassion and self sacrifice on behalf of the greater good belong here. At first sight The Emperor looks out of place on the descending, materialising side. But Jupiter rather than Mars seems more in keeping with an Emperor. The sephiroth is the first below the Abyss so it is the first "materialisation". I would expect it still to contain a large amount of Energy from above but obviously of a distinctly expansive type - this being the positive/generative/active pillar. This is too easy. I mean just look at the card. Masculine fertility or what? The man is a testosterone filled power-house. The sign is Aries, the ram! Need I say more? As for Jupiter, well this is the sephirah of the Father of the Gods: Jupiter, Zeus, Odin, Marduk, they were all horny (= ram, gedit?) as well as all powerful. Indeed, in the old days, in many societies a strong virile leader was absolutely essential for the survival of the tribe. In Celtic and Greek tradition he was regularly challenged by a representative of Soveriegnty, i.e. his consort, to ensure his continued worthiness.

On the Ascending, Spiritualising, side is the Empress. The eternally pregnant, fecund nature of which fits in perfectly with the idea of controlled procreative energy. In Celtic tradition (where stag = ram) the King's wife was symbolic of the land and while he could father children (well, sons really) on her he was permitted to lead the tribe. If he became unable to fulfil this function he would be challenged and if the challenger defeated him, then the challenger became king and inherited his wife.

Given that she, (rather than The Star) is now Tzadi, a fishook, a symbol it seems to me of hunting by stealth, it brings to mind all those devious Great Goddess figures of antiquity who managed to trick men into bedding them, e.g. Morgan Le Fey, who lay with Arthur and gave birth to Mordred; then there are the seducers of course, such as Aphrodite; and not forgetting the huntresses such as Artemis. But Demeter is the Goddess associated with this card most often. She was not a love goddess, but she had plenty of lovers. It was/is Her function to remain fruitful by bedding the most worthy of men to produce the most worthy of offspring to challenge the old King to maintain the future prosperity of the land. She is quite ruthless in getting what She wants.
So why is She here instead of in Netzach or Malkuth? Because this is the sphere of the Rulers of the Cosmos.

Descending the Tree, it means the entrance of Power - ordered (by Chockmah) and focused (by Binah) - into directly perceptable existence. In fact it is the first perceptable manifestation of energy. And that is Love. And that is Light. This Love, like Light, permeates Creation at all levels and in all places. It exists at the closest point to God we can find in mortal existence - just this side of the abyss which separates us from the Eternal.

Ascending the Tree that Power of Universal Love reaches its zenith. With the creation of a new life in the womb of The Mother within. A child who is destined to take centre stage as the ruler of a New Age. The Fool become Wise, the Divine Child who appears in Atus XX, Aeon, as King of the New World.

When we feel the "Love of God", when we feel whole and in touch and our heart is just bursting with Love, THIS is where you are.
If there is a sephirah which extolls the line "Love is the Law; Love under Will", it is Chesed.



OK, that's quite enough of that! I'm off to watch Stargate......
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcimer
I'm very glad you're getting something out of it, Windhorse.
Why thank-you; its been a hoot!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcimer
Jupiter is ruler here and the Sephirah means Love on a Spiritual basis; compassion and self sacrifice on behalf of the greater good belong here. At first sight The Emperor looks out of place on the descending, materialising side. But Jupiter rather than Mars seems more in keeping with an Emperor.
I was just finishing reading RV O'Neill's 'Tarot Symbolism' the other night, and he seems to refer to the Jupiter = Emperor idea. Coming from the purely Astrological point of view, this correspondence fits better, especially when you take the Emperor as being the just and fair version of masculinity/patriarchy - which of course many of us post-feminist goddess-worshipping pagan types do.... LOL Given your description of CHESED based upon this, it fits wonderfully....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcimer
In Celtic and Greek tradition he was regularly challenged by a representative of Soveriegnty, i.e. his consort, to ensure his continued worthiness.

On the Ascending, Spiritualising, side is the Empress. The eternally pregnant, fecund nature of which fits in perfectly with the idea of controlled procreative energy. In Celtic tradition (where stag = ram) the King's wife was symbolic of the land and while he could father children (well, sons really) on her he was permitted to lead the tribe. If he became unable to fulfil this function he would be challenged and if the challenger defeated him, then the challenger became king and inherited his wife.
Celtic and Greek weren't the only cultures to have this. Excellent sources for this are of course JG Frazer's "The Golden Bough" which is essentially a study of magic religion inspired by Frazer's fascination with the ritual death of the king and associated priestess-queen.
Joseph Campbell also wrote quite a bit on this, scattered throughout most - if not all - of his work. There is a bit in his "Masks of God" series.
The other thing to remember is that the consort was both Priestess and Empress (more often than not, Priestess - especially in Sumerian/Babylonian times; see the Epic of Gilgamesh). I think you'll find in the celtic/briton/arthurian context she was the Priestess (Morgaine of Avalon), and the Empress was someone else (Gwynyfyr). But far be it for me to contradict such outstanding work thus far from yourself.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcimer
OK, that's quite enough of that! I'm off to watch Stargate......
You lucky, lucky, lucky baastard! They too that off our tellys years ago - now one needs pay-tv to watch such outstanding pulp s/f tv. There's always eMule..... LMAO

Thanks for that. Got any more sephirotic notes to share?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhorse
Celtic and Greek weren't the only cultures to have this. Excellent sources for this are of course JG Frazer's "The Golden Bough" which is essentially a study of magic religion inspired by Frazer's fascination with the ritual death of the king and associated priestess-queen.
Joseph Campbell also wrote quite a bit on this, scattered throughout most - if not all - of his work. There is a bit in his "Masks of God" series.
The other thing to remember is that the consort was both Priestess and Empress (more often than not, Priestess - especially in Sumerian/Babylonian times; see the Epic of Gilgamesh). I think you'll find in the celtic/briton/arthurian context she was the Priestess (Morgaine of Avalon), and the Empress was someone else (Gwynyfyr). But far be it for me to contradict such outstanding work thus far from yourself.....
Oh you silver tongue! You're quite right of course, Celtic and Greek aren't the only cultures. I mention them because they are my main lines of study. Frazer's "Bough" was my bible when I was young. Largely dismissed by Folklorists these days, sadly, but I think many of his ideas are still to be disproved. Robert Graves in "The White Goddess" expands on Frazer's work in some remarkable directions. I've only read Campbell's "Hero with a Thousand Faces" many years ago. Used to have a copy, don't know where it is now. I didn't much like his "Masks of God" books. Thought they sounded too contrived. I haven't read O'Neil's book, but I shall find a copy and do so. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

In British Celtic tradition the ruler's consort was connected with the land. Most of the important women were connected with this idea; mother, daughter, sister, bride, they were all aspects of Sovereinty i.e. the land. Morgan la Fey and Gwenwyfar, as well as other figures like Careddwen and Bridget from Welsh and Irish myth, are aspects of that Soverienty. With regard to Arthurian myth, Gwenwyfar represents Sovereignty as the "empowering" aspect. Marriage to her means Kingship of the land. In Welsh stories she is abducted by various characters such as Medrawt (Mordred) and Gasozein who, by doing so, lay claim to rulership of the land. Arthur has to overcome them to win her back. Thus she tests his worthiness for she is not an unwilling accomplice in these abductions. In another story she is abducted and killed(!). Her kinsman Madeglans of Oriande comes to court and demands that Arthur yield up the Round Table and soveriegnty to him because, now that she is dead, Arthur is no longer entitled to them. Don't forget that the Round Table belonged to her family, coming to Arthur only as part of her dowry.

I might add that it was the failure of Arthur to give Gwenwyfar a son that brought the downfall of the kingdom and the end to Arthur's reign; as she sought out a progenitor elsewhere (Lancelot, Gwalcmai, the "abductions") Morgan tricked him into providing an heir. These ladies were hooking fish everywhere!

As for Morgan, to be fair an Enchantress rather than a Priestess since she was not connected with a religion, she was a late invention in Arthurian literature, as I'm sure you know. She became the synthesis of many Otherworldly Goddesses from the Morrighan, the Irish Battle Goddesses, to Arianrhod, the Welsh Goddess of the Dead. It was she who provided the final challenger to Arthur's rulership, his own son Mordred. Frazer would approve. But, being the Goddess of the Underworld, she becomes Arthur's deliverer and healer; escorting him to the land of the dead, healing his wounds so that the Once and Future King can rise again - somewhat better experienced next time round one hopes.
To Test and to Teach, Morgan became the dark aspect of the Sovereignty Goddess; to Empower and to Love, Gwenwyfar was the bright Flower Bride aspect of the Sovereignty Goddess.

So, yes they were "separate" in that their duties differed, but in an overarching sense they were two sides of the same Goddess.

This is much too deep a subject to give it justice in a couple of paragraphs. If you are at all interested in the Celtic Soveriegnty idea then I urge you to read Caitlin Matthew's two book study of the Mabinogion, "Mabon and the Mysteries of Britain" and "Arthur and the Sovereignty of Britain", from which I have drawn much of the above. If you liked Frazer and Campbell you'll love these.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhorse
Got any more sephirotic notes to share?
All in good time. Truly sorry to hear about your problems getting Stargate. I'll wager its down to that Murdoch bloke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhorse
the Emperor as being the just and fair version of masculinity/patriarchy - which of course many of us post-feminist goddess-worshipping pagan types do....
Right with you there buddy!
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Cheers for those two books - I'll chase them up sometime...

Had a play with this tree of life thing this evening.
Interesting to say the least. I was never one for art crit in my scholarly days, so finding similarities within the artwork's form/essence was a struggle (more of a word person meself...).

I did pick up on a few things I thought intersting. The similarity between the circlular nature of the Fool and the Universe; I also thought there was a visual symmetry happening with the Lovers and the Devil which I really got excited about: is the hierophant marrying the Emperor & Empress really just the phallic column in the Devil?!
I did actually notice that visually there was some similarity of the lines in Hierophant and Adjustment - but they don't sit on the same sephira to make any connection, but I did like that.

I also had a play with switching Adjustment and Lust which I did find interesting from a comparison of meaning (as opposed to the straight visual comparison). Which comes down to points either made in this thread or over in 'Star' thread about the sequence of hebrew letters. But visually, Fortune and Adjustment work for me in some kind of weird way...

...again, I stress my complete unqualifications in assessing visual images in this way. But it was a nice little game to play on a sunday eve. Unfortunately, I feel a little blind working with Qabbalah and the sephirotic tree, as I am really only just now starting to sink my teeth into it. The Tarot Guild of Australia had a workshop earlier this month (feb) run by Evelyn Joffe on the Tarot and the Qabbalah, and it piqued my interest in the overlay of this system with the Tarot. She used Waite however, and the traditional GD layout of the paths.

Someone mentioned somewhere else around here about the path layouts which have really got me thinking: the 3 mother letters = 3 horizontal (bridging) paths; the 7 double letters = 7 vertical paths; and the 12 simple letters = 12 diagonals. Could have something in it... would love to know if anyone has written about this...

And another thing which was kinda weird tonight. After playing around with the ToL, I decided to throw a spread which Evelynne Joffe showed us at the workshop. Its a ToL spread, and one uses it to gain insight on an idea one has. So I threw it regarding my venturing out to do Tarot stuff on a 'professional' level (for want of a better word... ie, getting paid to use Tarot for readings, healings, teacings, etc). The 3rd card (sitting in Binah) is about "what you need to think about..." - I got the Star. AHHAHAHAHA Not that I haven't been doing that for the last couple of weeks.... LOL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhorse
1)Had a play with this tree of life thing this evening.

2)I also thought there was a visual symmetry happening with the Lovers and the Devil which I really got excited about: is the hierophant marrying the Emperor & Empress really just the phallic column in the Devil?!

3)I did actually notice that visually there was some similarity of the lines in Hierophant and Adjustment - but they don't sit on the same sephira to make any connection, but I did like that.

4)I also had a play with switching Adjustment and Lust which I did find interesting from a comparison of meaning (as opposed to the straight visual comparison). Which comes down to points either made in this thread or over in 'Star' thread about the sequence of hebrew letters. But visually, Fortune and Adjustment work for me in some kind of weird way...


5)Someone mentioned somewhere else around here about the path layouts which have really got me thinking: the 3 mother letters = 3 horizontal (bridging) paths; the 7 double letters = 7 vertical paths; and the 12 simple letters = 12 diagonals. Could have something in it... would love to know if anyone has written about this...

6)And another thing which was kinda weird tonight. After playing around with the ToL, I decided to throw a spread which Evelynne Joffe showed us at the workshop. Its a ToL spread, and one uses it to gain insight on an idea one has. So I threw it regarding my venturing out to do Tarot stuff on a 'professional' level (for want of a better word... ie, getting paid to use Tarot for readings, healings, teacings, etc). The 3rd card (sitting in Binah) is about "what you need to think about..." - I got the Star. AHHAHAHAHA Not that I haven't been doing that for the last couple of weeks.... LOL
Answering 1) Play is good. Play comes first.

2)You should try putting the RWS majors on the sephiroth. See what you make of the symetry between Lovers and Devil in THAT layout.

3) But there is a connection between the cards because they are on the same pillar! Again, put the RWS down on the Tree and put Justice and Strength back into the positions they were in before Waite moved them (Justice = 8, Strength = 11). Now take a look at the symetry down the left-hand side of the pillar. Keep in mind that this is the the "passive" pillar.
In fact, the RWS throws up some equally interesting graphical correspondences. Which is why I'm coming to believe it may be a Golden Dawn theory rather than a Thelemic invention.

4) The beauty of the Golden Dawn Kabbalah, as Aeon418 said back in post #00, is its flexibilty. [Stand by for My Philosophy - ahem] If you're not using it as an aid in Ceremonial Magic but rather as a mirror for understanding you own place in the Universe and what the f*** is going on (as I am), then if it works for you then it works. Period. Of course if you want to make it an objective reality as some Great Truth (eg, Emperor = Tzadi) then you'd better be able to prove it!

5) Yes, its very tempting isn't it. I played around with that idea for more years than I care to remember, but I couldn't make it work. Good luck if you want to have a go. But before you do remember that those three horizontal paths aren't static in the sense that the seven paths on the three pillars are. They are part of the same sequence of paths that constitute the diagonals. That is, they are part of the route the Lightning descending and the Serpent ascending take. They flow from the right-hand to the left-hand pillars whether the energy is going up or down the Tree.

6) and how did you interpret it?
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