Xx Road Block Xx

Thoth is more correctly based in GD symbols

Thoth only becomes a "friend" and companion after a deeper study. It's not based on Waite symbols, correspondences or structure at all. At first glance it seems to be, but it's not for the most part. To bond with the deck requires a fresh beginning I found. The best book, period, on Thoth Tarot is undoubtedly Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot by Lon Milo Duquette (Unless you want to delve into the splended BOOK OF THOTH by Crowley himself, but it's not light reading). Duquette even dedicates a wonderful chapter to the Rose Cross symbolism (the back of the cards), which actually is something of an index to understanding the cards and correspondences.

Crowley's Minor Arcana is a wonder, really, but the meanings of the card are rooted in the elements and correspondences, per the 777 correspondences and Golden Dawn wisdom. Trying to read the minors in the fashion of a Waite deck (especially using traditional Waite-style definitions per various books), just doesn't work at all. Even the Majors are significantly different in name, numbering and symbolism. Waite was hampered by his proper oath to the Golden Dawn not to reveal inner secrets, especially deeper correspondences.

The Crowley deck is truly magical, but it's can't be based on Waite understandings. It's like trying to transliterate English to Mandarin. Best,

Begone, Golden Dawn!

Abrac said:

But the minors, while the imagery is vastly different,
the meanings follow Book - "T" virtually exactly.

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Crowley (who owned a copy of the Rider deck)
wrote Book-T in 1912...3 years after the cards
were completed and published. It is pure sham.

I don't think of the Crowley suits as Pips. Unlike true pip decks (the Medievals, etc), they are full of imagery and symbolism and elemental meanings. At a truly intuitive (or even intellectual) level, there's an awful lot more than pipping going on on the 36.... (removing the Aces and courts which in any deck are considered separately... of course that's a whole different discussion with the KNIGHT taking the place of the KING in Thoth, the PRINCE in place of the KNIGHT (Thoth versus Waite) -- for most of my friends it's the court cards that baffle them, but the court cards on Thoth are the most symbolic and beautiful of all (the Queen of Discs was Crowley and Lady Freida's favorite card, the earth of earth card, and I think, the last card they completed... )

Sorry, back to the "pips", I'll call them the 36 elementals. The Thoth deck is vivid with rich story telling on the Pips: vajras, elements, yin-yan, cadeuseus, fish, egyptian symbolism... you could spend a life time just studying the 36.

The words on the bottom are definitely meaningful -- even the choice of DISCS as the name for the elemental in stead of coins but there's much more to it than that. But those one word phrases are a meaningful keyword relative to the correspondences that relate to the 36.

Try meditating on some of the 36. You'll see them as rich in symbolism as any Waite-Smith pictograph. Actually, as a dovotee of both (I still have my original Thoth deck from the 1970s and an even earlier Waite deck, both of which I use daily), I'd venture to say Waite is easier, but Thoth "pips" are far richer in symbolism -- you see something new each time you look. Best,

Facts!

Fulgour said:

Crowley (who owned a copy of the Rider deck)
wrote Book-T in 1912...3 years after the cards
were completed and published. It is pure sham.

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Crowley only published the Golden Dawn's Book T in the Equinox vol. 1, no. 8 in 1912. It was actually written by S.L. Mathers some time between the 1880's and 1890's. A.E.Waite would have studied it when he was a member of the Golden Dawn. He obviously accepted the Golden Dawn's secret Strength/Justice switch.

It is unkown if Crowley ever owned a copy the Rider deck. But he obviously knew of it as indicated by the following comment from a humorous letter of his:

7. You have contemplated the construction and publication of a properly designed and executed pack, based on the Equinox information ever since the issue of the grotesque and falsified parody which appeared under the auspices of the later A.E. Waite.

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Aeon418 said:

Crowley only published the Golden Dawn's Book T in the Equinox vol. 1, no. 8 in 1912. It was actually written by S.L. Mathers some time between the 1880's and 1890's.

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Thanks Aeon418.

I knew it had been written by Mathers early on, but wasn't exactly sure when.

1912 - NOT Before

Aeon418 said:

Crowley only published the Golden Dawn's Book T in the Equinox vol. 1, no. 8 in 1912. It was actually written by S.L. Mathers some time between the 1880's and 1890's.

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Proof, proof, proof... it's what we hear in~ The "History Forum"
Dates, documents... proof, proof, proof. Book-T appears 1912.

Fulgour said:

Proof, proof, proof... it's what we hear in~ The "History Forum"
Dates, documents... proof, proof, proof. Book-T appears 1912.

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It's signed by MacGregor Mathers and appears in the lists of learning papers for the 2nd Order.

The subtitle for my copy of Book T says "Comprising Manuscripts N, O. P, Q, R, and an unlettered T.A.M. instruction)."

The Zelator Adeptus Minor instructions from 1892 include:
11. Receive and study Rituals N, O, P, Q, R.

Mary

Fulgour said:

Proof, proof, proof... it's what we hear in~ The "History Forum"
Dates, documents... proof, proof, proof. Book-T appears 1912.

Click to expand...

Simple. Buy yourself a copy of The Golden Dawn by Isreal Regardie. You will find Book T there signed by one S. RIOGHAIL MA DHREAM aka Samuel Liddell "MacGregor" Mathers.

The original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn existed from 1888 until 1903. Book T was one of a number of secret order documents that Crowley published in The Equinox. In fact Mathers even took Crowley to court over this and lost. This is historical fact.

It's also a fact that 777 was published several years before 1912. You can find much of the information in Book T tabulated there. How odd.

Road blocks

Not odd really ... just another one of those contuniued laid out 'proven facts' that some people seem to need to embarras themselves about.

It often seems that some people are trying to create road blocks for others and confuse the Crowley case much more than it needs to be (is if it isn't enough already for new comers!).

it all smacks of Waite! Like when he publicshed a book disputing the reality of Rosicrucians when he was lobbying to get into the G.D. second order (and those he was lobbying and the 2nd order itself were all Rosicrucian!

Really! If it didn't confuse people just starting out with Thoth and Crowleys wonderful magick/philosophy, it would be an absolute joke!

Please continue your history discussion. It's far above my head to participate at all. (Not playing the guilt card, just saying, I won't participate or else I'll become card 0 )

Since the reason I use tarot is to glean information off of it to read the PPF, I think I might just stick with what I know. I'll definitely check out some of your books that you recommended but I think right now I might just admire the deck from afar.

Thanks again for y'all's advice. I'll keep you posted incase something 'gooder' becomes of my thoth study

Thanks a lot you all.

tarotreader2007