Abrac
God commanded people to do (and not do) a lot of things in the Bible, most of which people basically ignore.
"Thou Shalt Not Make Graven Images"
Umbrae
There’s a spot there in the Bible (Exodus I believe), where Moses is up on the mountain talking to God. He comes down the mountain into camp and his buds are in a dither, “So and So has been prophesizing! We have to kill him! It’s the law!”
And Moses admonishes them, “I wish all of you would show just a hair of his enthusiasm, let him be.”
(all verbiage is paraphrased)…
Remember Samuel? Saul? That went to consult with the soothsayer?
Worshiping graven images is not related to divination (unless you worship your tarot).
And Divination in the Bible is divided…contacting the dead, conversing with the dead, as divination is verboten. But other types are not spelled out.
I highly recommend reading the Old Testament, comparing several different translations – it’s great reading, and highly enlightening (for the critical reader).
And Moses admonishes them, “I wish all of you would show just a hair of his enthusiasm, let him be.”
(all verbiage is paraphrased)…
Remember Samuel? Saul? That went to consult with the soothsayer?
Worshiping graven images is not related to divination (unless you worship your tarot).
And Divination in the Bible is divided…contacting the dead, conversing with the dead, as divination is verboten. But other types are not spelled out.
I highly recommend reading the Old Testament, comparing several different translations – it’s great reading, and highly enlightening (for the critical reader).
WOGIT
Heres a short story that I found a while ago and realy like.
THE SOLDIER'S ALMANACK, BIBLE AND PRAYER BOOK"
From "The History Of Playing Cards With Anecdotes Of Their Use In
Conjuring, Fortune-Telling And Card-Sharping"
Edited by Rev. Ed. S. Taylor, B.A.
Published in London in 1865
Richard Middleton, a soldier, attending divine service, with the rest
of the regiment at a church in Glasgow, instead of pulling out a
Bible, like his brother soldiers, to find the parson's text, spread a
pack of cards before him. This singular behaviour did not long pass
unnoticed, both by the clergyman and the sarjeant of the company to
which he belonged; the latter in particular requested him to put up
the cards, and on his refusal, conducted him after church before the
Mayor, to whom he preferred a formal complaint of Richard's indecent
behaviour during divine service.
"Well soldier!" said the Mayor, "what excuse have you for this
strange scandalous behaviour? If you can make any apology, or assign
any reason for it, it's well; if you cannot, assure yourself that I
will cause you, without delay, to be severely punished for it."
"Since your honour is so good," replied Richard, "I will inform you,
I have been eight days on march, with a bare allowance of sixpence a
day, which your honour will allow is hardly sufficient to maintain a
man in meat, drink, washing, and other necessaries that consequently
he may want, without a Bible, Prayer Book, or any other good book."
On saying this, Richard drew out his pack of cards, and presenting
one of the aces to the Mayor, continued his address to the magistrate
as follows:
"When I see an Ace, may it please your honour, it reminds me that
there is only one God; and when I look upon a Two or a Three, the
former puts me in mind of the Father and Son, and the latter of the
Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. A Four calls for remembrance the Four
Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. A Five, the five wise
Virgins who were ordered to trim their lamps; there were ten, indeed,
but five, your worship may remember, were wise, and five were
foolish. A Six, that in six days God created heaven and earth. A
Seven, that on the seventh day he rested from all that he had made.
An Eight, of the eight righteous persons preserved from the deluge;
viz., Noah, and his wife, with his three sons and their wives. A
Nine, of the Nine lepers cleansed by our Saviour; there were ten, but
only one returned to offer his tribute of thanks. And a Ten, of the
ten commandments that God gave Moses, on Mount Sinai, on the two
tablets of stone." He took the Knave and put it aside. "When I see
the Queen, it puts me in mind of the Queen of Sheba, who came from
the furthermost parts of the world to hear the wisdom of Solomon, for
she was as wise a woman as he a man, for she brought fifty boys and
fifty girls, all clothed in girls' apparel to shew before King
Solomon, for him to test which were boys and which were girls, but he
could not until he called for water to wash themselves; the girls
washed up to their elbows, and the boys only up to the wrists of
their hands, so King Solomon told by that. And when I see the King,
it puts me in mind of the great King of Heaven and Earth, which is
God Almighty, and likewise his Majesty King George the Fourth, to
pray for him."
"Well," said the Mayor, "you have given a good description of all the
cards except one, which is lacking."
"Which is that?" said the soldier.
"The Knave," said the Mayor.
"If your honour will not be angry with me," returned Richard, "I can
give you the same satisfaction on that as any in the pack?"
"No," said the Mayor.
"Well," returned the soldier, "the greatest knave that I know is the
sarjeant who brought me before you."
"I don't know," replied the Mayor, "whether he be the greatest knave
or no; but I am sure that he is the greatest fool."
The soldier then continued as follows; "When I count the number of
dots in a pack of cards, there are 365, so many days as there are in
a year. When I count how many cards are in a pack, I find there are
52, so many weeks are there in a year. When I reckon how many tricks
are won by a pack, I find there are 13, so many months are there in a
year. So that this pack of cards is both Bible, Almanack, and Prayer
Book to me."
The Mayor called his servants, ordered them to entertain the soldier
well, gave him a piece of money, and said he was the cleverest fellow
he ever heard in his life.
THE SOLDIER'S ALMANACK, BIBLE AND PRAYER BOOK"
From "The History Of Playing Cards With Anecdotes Of Their Use In
Conjuring, Fortune-Telling And Card-Sharping"
Edited by Rev. Ed. S. Taylor, B.A.
Published in London in 1865
Richard Middleton, a soldier, attending divine service, with the rest
of the regiment at a church in Glasgow, instead of pulling out a
Bible, like his brother soldiers, to find the parson's text, spread a
pack of cards before him. This singular behaviour did not long pass
unnoticed, both by the clergyman and the sarjeant of the company to
which he belonged; the latter in particular requested him to put up
the cards, and on his refusal, conducted him after church before the
Mayor, to whom he preferred a formal complaint of Richard's indecent
behaviour during divine service.
"Well soldier!" said the Mayor, "what excuse have you for this
strange scandalous behaviour? If you can make any apology, or assign
any reason for it, it's well; if you cannot, assure yourself that I
will cause you, without delay, to be severely punished for it."
"Since your honour is so good," replied Richard, "I will inform you,
I have been eight days on march, with a bare allowance of sixpence a
day, which your honour will allow is hardly sufficient to maintain a
man in meat, drink, washing, and other necessaries that consequently
he may want, without a Bible, Prayer Book, or any other good book."
On saying this, Richard drew out his pack of cards, and presenting
one of the aces to the Mayor, continued his address to the magistrate
as follows:
"When I see an Ace, may it please your honour, it reminds me that
there is only one God; and when I look upon a Two or a Three, the
former puts me in mind of the Father and Son, and the latter of the
Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. A Four calls for remembrance the Four
Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. A Five, the five wise
Virgins who were ordered to trim their lamps; there were ten, indeed,
but five, your worship may remember, were wise, and five were
foolish. A Six, that in six days God created heaven and earth. A
Seven, that on the seventh day he rested from all that he had made.
An Eight, of the eight righteous persons preserved from the deluge;
viz., Noah, and his wife, with his three sons and their wives. A
Nine, of the Nine lepers cleansed by our Saviour; there were ten, but
only one returned to offer his tribute of thanks. And a Ten, of the
ten commandments that God gave Moses, on Mount Sinai, on the two
tablets of stone." He took the Knave and put it aside. "When I see
the Queen, it puts me in mind of the Queen of Sheba, who came from
the furthermost parts of the world to hear the wisdom of Solomon, for
she was as wise a woman as he a man, for she brought fifty boys and
fifty girls, all clothed in girls' apparel to shew before King
Solomon, for him to test which were boys and which were girls, but he
could not until he called for water to wash themselves; the girls
washed up to their elbows, and the boys only up to the wrists of
their hands, so King Solomon told by that. And when I see the King,
it puts me in mind of the great King of Heaven and Earth, which is
God Almighty, and likewise his Majesty King George the Fourth, to
pray for him."
"Well," said the Mayor, "you have given a good description of all the
cards except one, which is lacking."
"Which is that?" said the soldier.
"The Knave," said the Mayor.
"If your honour will not be angry with me," returned Richard, "I can
give you the same satisfaction on that as any in the pack?"
"No," said the Mayor.
"Well," returned the soldier, "the greatest knave that I know is the
sarjeant who brought me before you."
"I don't know," replied the Mayor, "whether he be the greatest knave
or no; but I am sure that he is the greatest fool."
The soldier then continued as follows; "When I count the number of
dots in a pack of cards, there are 365, so many days as there are in
a year. When I count how many cards are in a pack, I find there are
52, so many weeks are there in a year. When I reckon how many tricks
are won by a pack, I find there are 13, so many months are there in a
year. So that this pack of cards is both Bible, Almanack, and Prayer
Book to me."
The Mayor called his servants, ordered them to entertain the soldier
well, gave him a piece of money, and said he was the cleverest fellow
he ever heard in his life.
Indigo Rose
jmd said:
Excellent statement, JMD.
An idol is something used to replace the one true God. Prayers, worship, and service are directed to the idol; instead of God. I agree with what others here have said...I do not worship the Tarot; I worship God. However, I use Tarot to ask questions of the Lord....but remembering it is from GOD which the answers come.(Proverbs 16:33)
Peace
WalesWoman
Why does no one ever ask, Can I cash my paycheck without going straight to hell?
Coinage, money (the root of all evil) ARE graven images and is much more worshiped than almost any other thing on this green earth, and while most of us realize how much we sell our souls to earn it... don't question the fact that we use it every single day in some form or another.
Since we have decided that readings are not written in stone, and the cards aren't woodcuts any more... they aren't technically graven images... therefore ... no longer fall into that category, so we should be safe.
The one commandment that might give a few to pause are the collectors & those with deck lust... Thou Shalt Not Covet...
Coinage, money (the root of all evil) ARE graven images and is much more worshiped than almost any other thing on this green earth, and while most of us realize how much we sell our souls to earn it... don't question the fact that we use it every single day in some form or another.
Since we have decided that readings are not written in stone, and the cards aren't woodcuts any more... they aren't technically graven images... therefore ... no longer fall into that category, so we should be safe.
The one commandment that might give a few to pause are the collectors & those with deck lust... Thou Shalt Not Covet...
firemaiden
All this reminds me of the opera Moses and Aaron by Schoenberg.
It's a pretty interesting opera, whose subject is the worship of idols - Moses desperately trying to make his people believe in God as invisible and omnipresent, and Aaron insisting the people must have something to see ...
I particularly remember the last scene in the opera where Moses realises his clay tablets containing the Ten Commandments are themselves a graven image so he smashes them...
Here is a synopsis of the last scene, which is relevant to our conversation:
Schoenberg never finished the opera, but it is performed nevertheless, ending with the smashing of the tablets. I think it is unfinishable because the paradox is un-resolvable.
It's a pretty interesting opera, whose subject is the worship of idols - Moses desperately trying to make his people believe in God as invisible and omnipresent, and Aaron insisting the people must have something to see ...
I particularly remember the last scene in the opera where Moses realises his clay tablets containing the Ten Commandments are themselves a graven image so he smashes them...
Here is a synopsis of the last scene, which is relevant to our conversation:
Aaron replies that the people can only worship that which they can see, while Moses remains steadfast in his insistence that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and cannot be represented. When Aaron points out that the Commandments are themselves an image, Moses smashes them. The Israelites prepare to continue their journey, now led by a pillar of fire, which becomes smoke as day breaks. Moses despairs that the pillar is a godless image, but Aaron believes it is God, not represented, but showing the people the way to Canaan. Moses laments that he cannot express himself adequately. He is defeated by Aaron’s facile explanations and the Israelites’ desire for an image.
Schoenberg never finished the opera, but it is performed nevertheless, ending with the smashing of the tablets. I think it is unfinishable because the paradox is un-resolvable.
ravenest
I avoid the whole issue by not being Jewish or Christian.
blackstormhawk
I've checked the commandments, and I don't see "thou shalt not read tarot". Graven images only counts against tarot if the prohibition is intended to refer to representative art.
Ross G Caldwell
firemaiden said:
If you mean, that the infinite cannot be confined to any finite form, then you have expressed the paradox.
But consider, how would an infinite, limitless, mind, know itself? If there is no mirror to look in, it would have to create a mirror. If there was nobody to talk to, it would have to make somebody to talk to. So, to take the infinite to its logical conclusion, infinite consciousness can only come to know itself only by limiting itself in every possible way. Thus the creation of the universe, where every possibility is realized.
According to logical principles of course. And that logic is the mind of God.
firemaiden
Ross G Caldwell said:
That is I think the paradox that is expressed in the opera, anyhow.
Okay -- Doesn't the word "mind" already comprehend a limitation? A mind implies a being - and a being implies something separate from non-being...and therefore less than finite...
