How do you interpret's Thoth's Devil in a reading?

Aeon418

Dryope said:
I read that the goat with it's horns symbolizes a reversed pentagram, if the card is reversed could it symbolize an upright pentagram instead, or is this just crazy thinking?
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It most certainly could symbolize an upright pentagram. :)

But there's a subtle twist on the Thoth Devil card that a lot of people miss. In some other decks you see a Devil with an inverted pentagram head, holding an upside-down torch. If you flip the card around the pentagram is upright and so is the torch. This tends to result in very dualistic, good-versus-bad interpretations. But on the Thoth card, even though there is a suggestion of an inverted pentagram, the torch(Phallus) is already upright. So if you flip the Thoth Devil the pentagram is upright, but now the torch points downwards. This indicates that neither direction is good or bad in itself, it's merely a change of focus. This may be what the card is trying to say in the context of your reading.
 

Zephyros

And Aeon, don't forget the ejaculatory combination you once showed me when you put the Aeon on top of the Devil, now that was a real eye-opener, I can tell you. In any case, I agree with what you said about the Devil as matter in the "good" sense, the driving force of Creation itself (can we not talk about sex so much?! :D).

In case anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, take out your cards and lay the Devil beneath the Aeon. Taken together thay are a very visual illustration of the "secret" of the Devil as portrayed in the Thoth.

But I wonder, in the testes, there are several figures in the right one, with one them, a sort of devil-thing, putting the others down. What do you make of this?
 

Aeon418

closrapexa said:
And Aeon, don't forget the ejaculatory combination you once showed me when you put the Aeon on top of the Devil, now that was a real eye-opener, I can tell you.
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I didn't want to over-complicate things. Dryope's query was of an interpretive nature, so I thought it was best to keep things simple.
closrapexa said:
But I wonder, in the testes, there are several figures in the right one, with one them, a sort of devil-thing, putting the others down. What do you make of this?
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For some reason when I look at both testes I see competion (Capricorn is a very competetive sign. ;)), but they represent two different qualities. The left hand teste represents a kind of feminine competetion. There seems to be no overt conflict between any of the four female figures, but each one seems to be saying, "hey big boy, look at me. I'm the one you want. ;)"
The contents of the right teste seem more obvioulsy masculine-competetive. It's that very male urge to be the top dog, or in this case the top Satyr. It's the active struggle to fight your way to the top.

The struggle in both testes seems very different, but they are like different expressions of One Thing. It all depends on how you look at it. In the other thread that you mentioned I quoted an extract from Wang's book where he suggested that the Devil is actually a birth card. At birth we find ourselves in either a male or a female body. But the incarnating soul (sorry for the metaphysics :rolleyes:) is androgynous. But from the moment of birth our view of life is heavily restricted by our physical gender. We either see life from a feminine point of view, or a masculine point of view. But if we could open our Third Eye we might see that things are not so set in stone as physical appearances lead us to believe.
 

Dryope

Aeon418 said:
It most certainly could symbolize an upright pentagram. :)

But there's a subtle twist on the Thoth Devil card that a lot of people miss. In some other decks you see a Devil with an inverted pentagram head, holding an upside-down torch. If you flip the card around the pentagram is upright and so is the torch. This tends to result in very dualistic, good-versus-bad interpretations. But on the Thoth card, even though there is a suggestion of an inverted pentagram, the torch(Phallus) is already upright. So if you flip the Thoth Devil the pentagram is upright, but now the torch points downwards. This indicates that neither direction is good or bad in itself, it's merely a change of focus. This may be what the card is trying to say in the context of your reading.
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I think you may have a point... change has definitly been a reoccuring theme for me lately.
In a way that's what I felt when this card appeared, but I couldn't fit this feeling into a concrete shape of thought (like when a word is on the tip of your tongue but it just doesn't come to you).
Maybe sometimes I just think to much instead of just going with what I feel... maybe that's why there are two 'swords cards' in this reading ;) (swords=air=thinking), or am I taking this to far right now?
Anyway, thank you for your reaction, it did clear things up for me a bit.

By the way, I do not nessecerily see the reversed pentagram as a sign of evil, although I do think that it's meaning differs from that of an upright pentagram.
Nor did I interpret the devil card as a bad sign in this reading.
That's one thing I like about th Thoth tarot; there is no obvious moral judgement in the meaning of these cards and the meaning of each card is very versatile, it isn't limited to a certain point of view, there's lots of space for intuitive reading.
 

Teheuti

Don't forget that the Devil also means Mirth. Perhaps the reversal means you are taking your thoughts too seriously—thinking they are real when they may be trapping you, rather than honoring the creative energy and delight of material existence. What would your favorite comedian make of the situation? I can't help but think of Steven Colbert's parody of Republicans—but whatever is your cup of tea.

BTW, both Lévi and Wirth are essential reading for whoever wants to understand Crowley's Tarot.
 

Aeon418

Teheuti said:
Don't forget that the Devil also means Mirth.
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Initially I did consider the Mirth aspect. But even though I don't use reversals I think I would reserve mirth for an upright Devil. While the Devil does not deny any aspect of existence, his exalted perspective gives him a different view of things. He sees the comedy in human life and it's hard not to laugh with him when you stop to consider how much of human behaviour is driven by nothing more than the basic animal instinct to mate and reproduce.
 

Teheuti

What I thought I said was, that in answer to the original spread position, "what is important right now?", is that he is taking his thoughts too seriously, rather than with Mirth (as the upright would imply). The reason why I said TOO seriously is that the Swords are problematic.
 

wulzcat

I have just dug out my Thoth deck as I've never known how to work with it, but suddenly (as of tonight) it's speaking to me. I did a three card reading on the energies i need to integrate in my life, and drew the Devil (also Death and Knight of Wands). despite my initial misgivings (read: horror) at drawing what seemed such a horrid spread, I quickly found out the meanings of the Thoth Devil and since I know some astrological symbolism was able to gain greater understanding...

I am working on a creative project that has stalled, and the subject matter is very dark, a bit twisted, and very subversive. i have worried about whether it would be too much for people to take. It is also funny, in a horrendously dark way. Drawing the Devil along with the other cards showed me taht I must get right on back with my task, which is everything that card denotes. Referring to the Thoth book, it reminds me to do the work without the 'lust of result', which has been a theme for me all week. I have a strong Capricorn moon so identify strongly with Capricorn, and understand its nuances very well. Studying the card, I had the sense of a kind of joyous and subversive creative masturbation, as if I were a man (I am not) and was ejaculating my creative seed all over the place, to people's horror and dismay. Not a very nice image, I grant, but it tallied with my question and i bet Crowley would approve. I don't know if taht helps you at all with your question about how to interpret the card in a reading. Obviously my association was very specific... :)
 

Dryope

wulzcat said:
I have just dug out my Thoth deck as I've never known how to work with it, but suddenly (as of tonight) it's speaking to me. I did a three card reading on the energies i need to integrate in my life, and drew the Devil (also Death and Knight of Wands). despite my initial misgivings (read: horror) at drawing what seemed such a horrid spread, I quickly found out the meanings of the Thoth Devil and since I know some astrological symbolism was able to gain greater understanding...

I am working on a creative project that has stalled, and the subject matter is very dark, a bit twisted, and very subversive. i have worried about whether it would be too much for people to take. It is also funny, in a horrendously dark way. Drawing the Devil along with the other cards showed me taht I must get right on back with my task, which is everything that card denotes. Referring to the Thoth book, it reminds me to do the work without the 'lust of result', which has been a theme for me all week. I have a strong Capricorn moon so identify strongly with Capricorn, and understand its nuances very well. Studying the card, I had the sense of a kind of joyous and subversive creative masturbation, as if I were a man (I am not) and was ejaculating my creative seed all over the place, to people's horror and dismay. Not a very nice image, I grant, but it tallied with my question and i bet Crowley would approve. I don't know if taht helps you at all with your question about how to interpret the card in a reading. Obviously my association was very specific... :)
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Thanks, actually this is helpfull to me...
 

Dryope

When I think of the devil card this song by Amorphis keeps popping up in my mind, I think it's quite applicable to the card (especially because of the chorus and the last sentence of the last verse):

Amorphis - The way said:
Forging the future from the timeless stone
Oh let me know how far I can go
Answering the questions that no one ever asks
Float through the sea of madness
And face the everlasting task

So lonely to wander
So sad to be alone
In the mist of the unknown
Trying to fool myself with dreams that never come true
So hard to stand my ground
Never again will I fail

[Chorus:]
Will you tell me not to wait
Tell me to live for today

As the flowers wither
I will forget my pain
Since the stars have shone
The devil has shown me the way
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZo5e_439uw

I'm not sure wheter this is on or off topic (if it's off topic I'm sorry), but I thought some of you might like it...
 
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