The Star card

ravenest

ups!

Aeon418 said:
Now you've lost me. Heh and Tzaddi stay put. Only the cards switch around. Heh is still on the 15th path and Tzaddi on the 28th.

No I lost myself. Don't be confused by my confusion Aeon, I dig where you're coming from, specially with Adjustment placement.

It seems strange to put the star up with the Empress and all them guys that live up there (progression polarities, etc.) And the emperor down with the moon and sun where the star belongs. Similar to what you noted with adjustment and its nice placement between Chesed and geburah, (it aint balanced in the other position- however it does show the fall of Maat and Justice in modern society..... [I am an ancient Egyptophile!]) We need to see how the cards fit comfortibly on the tree in relation to Sephira AND the other cards around them.

The first reference to this link and the chart in thoth - (and I'm not convinced it's wrong as its attributions following letters are attributions to the letters and not the cards) show what happens to qabalistic progression (follow down the houses and number progressions), when you mess with the attributions and swap the wrong thing (i.e. house progression and not numerical sequence.)

Have I lost myself again?

See my other post about my long nut-out
 

ravenest

more rave from rave on est

Yep, I keep getting references mixed up, so feel free to kick my butt when I do.

The Marseilles deck had a numerical sequential order for the trumps. Levi (or someone) corresponded this to the paths on the Tree of Life and their Hebrew letters and this was adopted by the G.D. But in analysis there seemed to be a mistake (or misinformation) in this attribution according to the energy of Astrological houses and the images on the card in relation to Lust/Strength and Justice/Adjustment. It seemed out of sync with the natural order of the zodiac. Following the numbers and imagery of the card they seem to be going; 6,7,8,9,10,11,12. And Gemini, Cancer Libra, Virgo, Leo, Scorpio. So they changed it to Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio but retained the numerical sequence 6,7,11,10,8,12. Why didn’t they change the number to correspond to the Zodiac. A.C. says they were too busy rebelling, and trying to make their own link with the Secret Masters (Book of Thoth p.8) So he fixed it for them by putting the numbers right (see his double loop diagram – right hand side Thoth p.11- the numbers go around the zodiac circle and force the zodiacal progression to loop) .Why not change the numbers and houses so they both follow a logical and circular progression? (because it makes a nice loop on one side so we can balance it with another loop opposite it to prove the Tzaddi / Star thing?) Seems like fudging it a bit? I feel like I am watching a magic trick, I cant figure out exactly what’s going on, but it feels a bit sus’ to me.

So why else might he have done it? Some hidden numerology to do with why Lust has to be numbered 11 - Lust; physical sacrament of the Aeon, 11, number of the Word of the Aeon. Some counter-change between 8 (magic / mercury) and 11 number of magick and Nuit? Or did he do this at the time he was trying to fit the Tzaddi not being the Star communication into the system?

It looks like a dodgy balance because although the double loop diagram looks good and balanced there is an obvious imbalance when we add it to the tree, and it is this: The Zodiac can be a circular form (as it is in nature) but also a table with a beginning and end. One (world or level) Tree of Life is not circular and is only linear. I mean that the changes or switches look balanced at either end of the circle by a double loop, but when we tabulate it, one change is in the middle (around Virgo) and the other is at the end around Pisces. When this is placed on the tree its difficult to notice the middle change as the paths do not move far, yet the change I feel is VERY relevant (Well spotted Aeon!). But the other change is very big and sticks out like dogs ***** The EMPEROR is way down there amongst the celestial bodies (Moon, Sun, World/Universe) and the STAR is way up there with all the people. Maybe we need to swap them all back? So If Tzaddi is NOT the Star, lets try swapping the letters around on the Tree and change their value … imagine the mess that would make (all the centuries of Gematria down the drain (yahoo ).Now the Rabbis will really be LoL at us! So we have to keep that the same. This is why I love the chart in Book of Thoth (p.278) It shows the mess that that Levi, G.D and A.C. made of the Qabalistic Tarot (go down the columns and check the numerical values and the Astrological house progression). The chart isn't wrong, every column that comes after the Hebrew letter describes the traditional values of the letters – not the cards (cause they don’t have a traditional qabalistic value – only an Hermetic Qabalistic value, and I believe we are still working that out).

It’s the card progression that is wrong. We are either going to have to have to disrupt the Tree, or the chart (Traditional qabalah) or get rid of this Tzaddi thing and balance it back out in the Lust Adjustment area.

But Tzaddi must be justified to justify Liber AL and the prophet (and the Thoth deck).
[‘scuse me while I get a bit sarcastic]:
(Thinks) Bugger it! I gotta justify this Tzaddi, Star thing, and the book and me as the prophet … I like my loop diagram, it’s the only solution I can come up with, Star cant be Aries and the Emperor cant be Aquarius, so I wont change the letter positions on the Tree cause that could change the numeric values but I can change the Astrological values, cause they haven’t been around as long … and whose gonna know anyway? Hmmm ….
(Out loud) “ Frieda! I’ve changed it again. Leave everything the same but now just paint an Aries on the Emperor and an Aquarius on the Star!”
(Frieda) “Silly old bugger, he’s got it wrong again, I aint having another argument, I’ll just do what he says and paint the Star like a big Tzaddi (someone will eventually get that) and the Emperor … hmmm … well he is a he, and not a she, …he he, that’s so obvious no occultists will ever get that one!”

I think what Aeon has done is look at the natural numbering of the paths, as emanations of progressive sephira and attributed the Hebrew letters accordingly in order and value and then see if the traditional hermetic qabalistic correspondences fit there with cards (I think they do except for Emperor Star switch). So why cant we work it out in a balanced and correct system, since the G.D. were too busy bickering and Crowley’s changes are clearly from someone who has only the half of it (see Liber AL).

I like the system of numbers being changed to suit astrological order and just doing it like that Emperor is Aries and he is He and Star is Aquarius and she is Tzaddi. Since I cant follow clearly or justify Crowley’s swaps I am not accepting it and as a Thelemite I’ll NEVER accept something as dogma just because it explains other dogma, nor will I arrange my deck to suit any uncomprehended dogma.

There is always development and progression in the Hermetic Qabalah and Tarot attribution’s. Crowley / Thoth is the current penultimate interpretation, but in any case of new development will always be the penultimate one as the final interpretation and development lies within your own self and your own personal gnosis with the Tarot.

If there is a better solution why didn’t A.C. reveal it? Liber AL says he only has the half of it. So who has the other half? …. Us? Some other dude? Me? … I like the Us one best. And perhaps that what we are working out?

One way I like to look at it is (being an ancient Egyptophile) is that in ancient Egypt, Maat ( the Egyptian concept / Neter of natural order, harmony and divine justice) ruled supreme, in that she held the whole of all human concepts in check. This justice was balanced (back then in human consciousness, priority and social application) like Aeon has balanced it on the Tree, positioning justice between mercy and severity. I’m reminded of Liber Librae; Severity without mercy is but cruelty and mercy without severity is but weakness that allows and abets evil (isn’t this a definition of true justice and the application of adjustment? Isn’t this a reflection of our current lack of perception with justice where “Zero tolerance” fights “bleeding-heart liberalism?).
But now, in modern times, we have lost Maat’s overall significance and justice has fallen down the tree to be influenced by Glory (Tiphareth, heart of the matter, fire, Sol, ego) as opposed to Mercy ( Chesed, benevolence, Jupiter, expansion). It has become attached to the centre, Sol and mans ego. Egyptians understood it significance as above the realm of man. Justice was not created by man, but by Maat. It came THROUGH man from Maat, in man as the Supreme Man - as represented by the Divine King, who, to be a divine king must have all the qualities of the sephira, he must have a dominion or empire (a nation or even his own psyche), a foundation, he must develop and exhibit splendour, beauty & glory. He must show severity and mercy. He must have knowledge, understanding and wisdom, then he can put on his divine crown and rule justly his empire. (We can include the qualities of the paths as well.)

Perhaps this disruption in the Tree (justice fallen) is a symbol of relevance to modern society and our selves?

Any way it IS the Book of THOTH, EGYPTIAN Tarot, and A.C. did start this whole Tzaddi thing off after a wild night in the Kings Chamber of The Great Pyramid in EGYPT.

Let’s get rad’ then. If Tzaddi isn’t the Star what are we gonna put Tzaddi to? Lets not repeat above confusions and loop things. The Solar system isn’t looped so we wont do it.
Looking at the Star, what makes it special from the others? It does not have any animal or anthropomorphic figures shown on it, Trumps nearly all have one or the other or both. Any other card like that? Only Adjustment. So we have 2 cards with a distinct similarity yet both are different from any other card in the deck. They are purely human and seem to relate to purely human process, by symbol. And Justice by concept, although Adjustment is a natural process.
What happens when we say, okay, Tzaddi is not the Star so lets make Tzaddi Adjustment AND whack it in between Chesed and geburah? Or leave it where it is. And change the Star to Lamed, now what’s happening in your Tree?

How will we know if it fits? We cant go back (at first) and compare with cards as our first reference was qabalistic and our reference grid is the Tree of Life, so we will start there. We must see if our qabalistic knowledge confirms and justifies this switch (without, hopefully, pages of confusing self-referential gematria!). WE can use common sense to start (and that is a tool of the initiate because as most of history and experience confirm, common sense is the least common human possession), logic and esoteric knowledge. So we have to think first, not “What does Star, or Justice or adjustment mean to me” but “what does the path between Chesed and Geburah mean to me, what does fish-hook, the value 90, etc, etc, mean to me.” We cant think fish hook means Star or Emperor we need to work our correspondences and positioning qabalistically, then put the cards in.

The trouble is, ideas associated with Hermetic Qabalah are influenced by Tarot and astrological attribution’s and permeate the concepts. So we would have to go back to traditional Jewish Qabalah (which does not include Tarot cards), in short, you’d have to get good at Traditional Qabalah and then navigate your way through into an Hermetic Qabalah and create a new balanced and sensible New Aeonic Hermetic Qabalah. I don’t believe Crowley did that, he mussed with it a bit but didn’t work it all fully out (but maybe half of it).

See Atu XI Book of Thoth p.95.; “Behind the figure of the Beast and his Bride are 10 luminous rayed circles; they are the Sephiroth latent and not yet in order for every Aeon demands a new system of classification of the Universe”

Any takers?
 

Windhorse

Firstly, my humble apologies to all Oxes and Ox-Goaders: I know how sensitive they can be when called goats.

Aeon: you raise some good points, not to mention pulling me up on making a statement and not backing it up with supporting evidence. Clearly I still haven't learnt that lesson that my old Archaeology Professor used to pull me up on. (Yes Ravenest, I too am an Egyptologist... but I guess one could appreciate that there ain't many jobs going in Australia in that field... LOL)

And Raven, I love your lengthy tracts of thought process and discussion. And so Aeon, I point you to what Ravenest wrote and in nswer to your criticism of my opinion merely state, "What he/she said!" (sorry Raven, am unaware of your gender) ;) :)

I have seen people quite well versed in Qabbalah explain the Tree in terms of Waite's system and Crowley's system - and they both work, are both valid, and both make perfect sense when explained by someone well versed in that system.
Like I said, "horses for courses..."
I tend to go with the idea that there is no absolute truth, but many diverse perceptions of truths.... call me a fence-sitter, but I prefer the temperate tolerance of plurality, rather than the absolute mono-ness of 'my truth is truer than your truth' kind of thing.

I guess I was getting in touch with my INFJ-esque intuition and felt that Aiwass was perhaps a trickster spirit, trying to confuse the issue (either that or Big Al had one hell of a Hookah!) - as Aeon said, "There is no loop in the Universe."

...But then again, maybe there is! Who am I to make such braod sweeping absolutist statements.

:)

Now forgive me, coz many of us have said many things... but did someone suggest that JUSTICE/ADJUSTMENT-LAMED should sit on the 19th path between GEBURAH(5) & CHESED(4)?

In contemplating all of this, I have had an epiphanous thought, and it goes something like this:

Whilst I sit amongst my own rubble of open books and pages of notes, methinks that the horizontal bridging paths on the Tree - 14, 19, 27 - have to be very strong to in order to hold together the Sephirot from opposing pillars. Thus: what card would have what it takes to successfully hold SEVERITY & MERCY at the same table?

I suggest that the appropriate card for that should be JUSTICE/ADJUSTMENT. Now as to what number, order or hebrew letter should correspond to this, I haven't worked out, but let me spell out why. Perhaps someone else will build on this and fit the others where they will.

In keeping with the vastly syncretistic nature of the Tarot, I bring to you some wisdom from China - specifically from the ancient art of T'ai-Chi. Everyone is familiar with the yin-yang symbol. It actually has a name: "t'ai ji tu" - i'm not sure about a translation, and this info may actually be spurious and incorrect. Irrelevent, I digress.....
...Now a very important aspect of this symbol, and always overlooked is the s-shaped curvy line that lies between yin and yang. This line is often referred to as 'the ridgepole', and this reference comes from one of the hexagrams in the Book of Changes (I can't recall which one presently, and I'm not getting up now to find my copy... sorry...). The nature of this hexagram, and of this line is that it is both firm and yielding - thus it possesses the natures of both elements which it keeps apart and together at the same time: it is firm enough to keep the two separate; it is also yielding enough to allow them to hug each other, thus creating that circling effect.

The card that lies between Severity and Mercy would have to have the same quality, don't you think? Being that these sephirot are named after the pillars (meant to be the pillars at the front of the Temple of Solomon), are these two sephirot somehow representative of the pillars on which they lie?
What could be both firm and yielding enough to bridge not only the sephirot but the pillars themselves? I suggest that JUSTICE/ADJUSTMENT is just that card! And Crowley's image of Maat (the Goddess) fits this so much better than Waite's Justesse. The scales are a symbol whih also suggest the firm-yet-yielding-ness that the s-line in the t'ai-ji-tu suggests - especially when the name given to the scales is "Adjustment" rather than "Justice". The card of course refers to consequences, ramifications. I look at the two sephirot as referring to 'giving' (chesed) and 'taking' (geburah) - and of course, there is always give and take when scales are weighing something up; for one side is up the other must be down, and vice versa.

I'm pretty happy with that. How do you feel? I just know however that someone will come and show me that Strength/Lust can also fit that bill too, but I'm leaving it as is for now.

the question of course I have is this:
would Lamed fit in with that schema? Unfortunately, it traditionally sits between Geburah and Tiphareth doesn't it? Bugger.... but at least with this interpretation, Adjustment takes her rightful place as Trump 8....
(nervous chuckle).... reminds me of a Bart Simpson quote... "chicks on the bench... he he" :0

Some quiet little tricksterish voice is still whispering in my ear that Tzaddi is not the Star, and that the Emperor deserves his rightful throne up near his fave ladies Empress and Priestess (ie, path 15, between the immense possibilities of Chokmah and the balanced power of Tiphareth's ego), but as I stated elsewhere, I think the archetypal sky goddess could fill those shoes just as easily. But then Nwt/Neith works soooo much better between the unconscious foundation of yesod and the emotional netzach than ram-headed Emperor Aries...

now i'm confused again. my head hurts; i'm going to have a little nap....
:)
 

Windhorse

OK, well I just found the Kabbalah threads on this forum, and I thought I'd go poking around to see if I could get some answers on the hebrew letters and the paths, etc.

And then I find this little bit about Lamed:

kwaw said:
Libra in the SY is attributed to the letter Lamed, which among other things is said to symbolize the power to direct and control the animal instinct.

The guardian angel is symbolised by an angel closing the mouth of a lion, after the Angel who 'shut the mouths of the Lions' protecting Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, exorcists, Chaldeans and diviners [also known as Daniel] in the Lion's den. According to kabbalisitic texts, possibly influenced by neoplatonic doctrines, this Guardian Angel was Daniel's own 'self made perfect'.

This personal angel is a mediating principle between the magician and the angel Metatron,

Kwaw

Was not Waite/Coleman-Smith's image for STRENGTH an angel holding a lion by the mouth?
Lamed is the 11th Hebrew Letter. So Crowley got the order right, but the hebrew correspondence wrong.....

..now I'm even more confused....

... I'm now getting the feeling that Crowley was in some bizarred way creating red herrings that gave cryptic clues to the red herrings that Waite and other Golden Dawners were including.... which means that Tzaddi may very well NOT be the Star....

... so now I can honetly say, I have absolutley no idea who is what and where is why or how is when!

Confused yet? Hell, I am....
:(
 

Aeon418

Windhorse said:
Confused yet? Hell, I am....:(
LOL :D

If you're looking for the "one true order" of the Tarot and Qabalah you will never find it. There are lots of different ways in which the Tarot majors can be placed on the Tree of Life. Each different way reveals truths but not ultimate truth. ;)
The test of each different set of attributions is internal consistency. Is a particular cards position saying something, or is it a complete mis-match.

When you look at Crowley's Star / Emperor swap you have to look at it within the context of the Golden Dawn Tarot attributions. Both attributions work but you have to work out why for yourself. If you go outside of those attributions and start looking for justications within the French order or some other different system you are going to get lost straight away.
 

Aeon418

Crowley's Star / Emperor swap has to viewed within the context of the Golden Dawn attributions and Crowley's philosophy of Thelema.

The Golden Dawn placed the Emperor on the 15th path between Chokmah and Tiphareth. This was supposed to symbolise the influence of the divine wisdom on the individual man or woman via The Emperor - God the Father.

If you still believe in an external vengeful, deity, father figure in heaven with a list of Thou shalt's and Thou shalt not's, that's fine. That attribution will work for you because it reflects the Universe as you see it.

If on the other hand you see deity as an inner reality that becomes your own Star. ;) (Every man and every woman is a star.)
Crowley also notes that the new placement of the Star on the 15th path brings together the 3 Goddesses for the first time. The re-unification of the feminine. Does that remind you of anything in the world today like people turning away from organised patriarchal religion and looking for different spiritualities.

The Golden Dawn placed the Star on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach. With it come all the associations of Hope and Faith. But hope and faith in what? Something outside of yourself like God?

Crowley's philosophy says their is no God so what is there to have blind faith and hope in? You have to rely on yourself to sort your problems out not praying to something that doesn't exist. This is why the Emperor makes sense when placed on the 28th path. It is the card of active strength and self discipline. Now that it's low down on the Tree in the area of the personality it's the difference between waiting in blind faith for God to save you or saving yourself.
 

Alta

ravenest said:
ta! Do you mean, post several replies, send to peoples email or is there Post Boxes somewhere else I havnt found yet?
A post can only be so long. You can take your response, and split the text, posting the sections sequentially.
 

Aeon418

ravenest said:
The trouble is, ideas associated with Hermetic Qabalah are influenced by Tarot and astrological attribution’s and permeate the concepts. So we would have to go back to traditional Jewish Qabalah (which does not include Tarot cards), in short, you’d have to get good at Traditional Qabalah and then navigate your way through into an Hermetic Qabalah and create a new balanced and sensible New Aeonic Hermetic Qabalah. I don’t believe Crowley did that, he mussed with it a bit but didn’t work it all fully out (but maybe half of it).
I agree. Crowley didn't work out a whole New Aeon Qabalah. He made an attempt at reconstruction on New Aeon lines (see Liber V vel Reguli as an example in practice), but it was only a start.

In a letter to the wandering Gnostic Bishop, W.B.Crow, Crowley says that he is only the prophet of the New Aeon. It is up to people of future to fully work everything out for themselves. Crowley recognised that his thinking processes were rooted in the Old Aeon and always would be.

The Invocation of Horus according to the divine vision of W., the Seer is a good example of Crowley's Old Aeon mentality clashing with New Aeon methods and practice. Crowley designs an invocation of Horus along Golden Dawn lines only for Rose to tell him no. She then instructed him on how he should invoke Horus in a way that breaks every rule he knows. It's quite revealing.
ravenest said:
See Atu XI Book of Thoth p.95.; “Behind the figure of the Beast and his Bride are 10 luminous rayed circles; they are the Sephiroth latent and not yet in order for every Aeon demands a new system of classification of the Universe”

Any takers?
Frater Achad had a good go at it. But Crowley didn't like it. ;)

There are some interesting ideas in this thread: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=52893
 

ravenest

Aeon418 said:
LOL :D
If you go outside of those attributions and start looking for justications within the French order or some other different system you are going to get lost straight away.

So thats what happened to me .....

Hoiw do I get back now?
 

ravenest

If you still believe in an external vengeful, deity, father figure in heaven with a list of Thou shalt's and Thou shalt not's, that's fine. That attribution will work for you because it reflects the Universe as you see it.

If on the other hand you see deity as an inner reality that becomes your own Star. ;) (Every man and every woman is a star.)

Thankyou Aeon, for me that is the most valid explainaition for the swap I've heard yet!!