"Thou Shalt Not Make Graven Images"

Ross G Caldwell

firemaiden said:
Hmmmmmmmmm hmmmmmmmmmmm. Okay well in that case, "mind of God" and "God" would be the same thing no?

That's what I would say. Would you disagree?

Or is there another part of God that is not "mind"?

What could that be? It would lead to another creation scenario - who created the body in which God's mind resides? You're still thinking dualistically - there has to be a body in which the mind resides.

Go a little bit further...

Perhaps the English word "mind" is just our sorry translation of something richer; the Russian "dukha" means all at once spirit, heart, mind, breath, air, ghost, smell...

Well, I'm not relying upon the etymology of the word or its traditional implications. It would be just as easy to say that mind is matter as that matter is mind. The fact that we are conscious will then imply that all of matter is conscious - or better, that matter is consciousness itself.

And the infinity of matter is the infinity of consciousness, which most people would be inclined to call "God".
 

firemaiden

Ross G Caldwell said:
You're still thinking dualistically - there has to be a body in which the mind resides.

Yes, you are right. How can there be a mind without a body to support it?, or at least without some kind of "envelope"?

Maybe we need to define what "mind" means?
 

chrisam-crystals

i'm just glad that i am pagan, otherwise i would go nuts trying to get my head around whteher i could do this or that or the other.....lol

seriously though, i personally believe that the whole structured religion ethos where there are orders and rules just smacks of control of the masses.

i am a free thinker, and thankfully i can make up my own mind without worrying about whether the religion i was brought up in agrees with what i am doing.
 

jmd

To quote only one part of the unified statement from Exodus is not giving the verse as presented. It is not the making of imagery that is forbidden, but the making of imagery and making of it an idol:
4 - Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

5 - thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I HaShem thy G-d am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

6 - and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

Tanakh [JPS translation]
In terms of the translation of dibrot, a 'statement' from God about what one is prohibited from doing is, effectively, more accurately translated as 'commandment'. Of course one may 'disobey' the statement, and the consequences, therein, are also spelled out.

For myself, only quoting 20:4 from 20:4-6 is a little like someone quoting another either out of context, or purposefully not including a section of the quote that explains why the commandment (in this case) is given: "do not worship any but me, and thus make no idols by the making of images of any living thing from air, water or Earth".

Some may indeed begin to use Exodus to attack the uses of Tarot. For those amongst us who may see in Exodus important 'commandments', it would be important, I suggest, to be clear as to the relation between tarot images and whether or not the statement applies.

As should be obvious from the above, I personally see no implied or derived prohibition with the text - unless one engages in idolatry.
 

Rosanne

The word Graven comes from firstly the teutonic word grab/grob to engrave or dig (Graves) then to Medieval English grafan which meant at times to write as well as dig or etch. Not a good word for the commandment- which meant 'do not sculpture idols'. It is the giving of worship, due to God alone, to anyone or anything but God. It is considered, maybe the greatest sin, since it robs God of his honour by putting the creator after his creatures. I think there are many forms of idolatry, and it is not always clear if in false worship given, the worshippers identify the divinity/deity with the sculptured image, or regard the image as representing the divinity/deity, to which the worship is really directed. It seems to me that idol worship and the making of idols is directed at the fact that the image contains the spirit of the divinity/deity, which remains always present in the idol and is bound to it in some way. Tarot is not an idol; although I could see that some imbue the images with spirit (i.e my cards are angry with me ) In ancient times a meteorite was once thought to be the actual Storm God called Yahweh. The stone itself was worshipped as a God. We know now that it was a radioactive rock from space. Some people believe that if you take a photo of them, you are capturing their spirit within the image- that belief is also idolatrous.~Rosanne
 

chrisam-crystals

jmd said:
4 - Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

5 - thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I HaShem thy G-d am a jealous G-d visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;



now when i read and re-read that, it says to me that the hebrew/christian god isn't the only god in "creation".

why would the ONLY god in the whole of the universe be jealous of someone bowing down to an image of a fish or plant, if they knew that there was no god-spirit within that image?

surely god would be thinking, "well it doesn't matter what that person calls that image, as the only energy within it is mine.....so they are really worshipping myself."

it just smacks of that religion trying to put the frighteners on other religious groups, and get them converted by fear - "bow down to our god otherwise he will smite your families for generations to come."
 

Sophie

chrisam-crystals said:
now when i read and re-read that, it says to me that the hebrew/christian god isn't the only god in "creation".

why would the ONLY god in the whole of the universe be jealous of someone bowing down to an image of a fish or plant, if they knew that there was no god-spirit within that image?

surely god would be thinking, "well it doesn't matter what that person calls that image, as the only energy within it is mine.....so they are really worshipping myself."

it just smacks of that religion trying to put the frighteners on other religious groups, and get them converted by fear - "bow down to our god otherwise he will smite your families for generations to come."
Well, at the time the 10 Statements were written, that was the case. There was no monotheism then - it developed much later. HaShem was the god of the Jews, but other gods existed. There are many passages in the Bible that show him in competition with the other gods. Part of the project of the 10 Statements was to win that competition - to say: whatever the other folks do - I'm YOUR god, and don't you forget it!
 

prudence

well, I must be bound for hell. I make graven images all of the time, and I love doing it.

I am not going to stop doing it either. :) It feels like one of the most natural things in the world to do, and it doesn't bother my gods one bit.
 

Fulgour

I am unbesmitted, and I love it.

chrisam-crystals said:
it just smacks of that religion trying to put the frighteners on other religious groups, and get them converted by fear - "bow down to our god otherwise he will smite your families for generations to come."
And if your weren't frightened enough to mindlessly obey,
there would be some nice folks ready to smite you pronto.
 

kwaw

False perception about figural representation in Islam

closrapexa said:
However, at least from my understanding, the verse forbids the display of anything that is alive, or that exists in nature. Similar, indeed, to the Islamic law on the subject. In Mosques and Arab building and palaces, you will never see the figure of an animal or person. Hence Arabian empires were renowned for their geometrical patterns and designs.

Even in Islamic culture the rule of figurative art has been interpreted with varying degrees of strictness in different places and periods. There are many beautiful medieval manuscripts from Islamic countries that include human and animal figures, though disallowed in the context of religious monuments and buildings, they have been used in secular sciences and arts, figures of the constellations for example. For example here is a folio from a manuscript on 'ingenious devices' by Al-Jazeera from the Mamluk period:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/07/wae/ho_57.51.23.htm

And a couple from exhibit on 'Glass of the Sultans' which incorporate animal, bird and insect motifs:

http://www.metmuseum.org/special/Glass_of_the_Sultans/8.r.htm
http://www.metmuseum.org/special/Glass_of_the_Sultans/11.r.htm

quote:
The Nature of Islamic Ornament, Part IV: Figural Representation

This is the final exhibition in a four-part series examining the basic forms and sources of Islamic ornament. Through about 25 objects in many media, chosen primarily from the Museum's permanent collection, the exhibition examines the widespread but false perception that figural representation is never permitted to appear in Islamic art.
End quote from:

http://www.metmuseum.org/special/se_event.asp?OccurrenceId={267E22F4-C412-11D3-936E-00902786BF44}

quote:
Another characteristic of Islamic art is a preference for covering surfaces with patterns composed of geometric or vegetal elements. Complex geometric designs, as well as intricate patterns of vegetal ornament (such as the arabesque), create the impression of unending repetition, which is believed by some to be an inducement to contemplate the infinite nature of God. This type of nonrepresentational decoration may have been developed to such a high degree in Islamic art because of the absence of figural imagery, at least within a religious context.

Contrary to a popular misconception, however, figural imagery is an important aspect of Islamic art. Such images occur primarily in secular and especially courtly arts and appear in a wide variety of media and in most periods and places in which Islam flourished. It is important to note, nevertheless, that representational imagery is almost invariably restricted to a private context. Figurative art is excluded from the decoration of religious monuments. This absence may be attributed to an Islamic antipathy toward anything that might be mistaken for idols or idolatry, which are explicitly forbidden by the Qur’an.
End quote from:
http://www.calligraphyislamic.com/IntroIslamicArt.html

quote:
Although the often cited opposition in Islam to the depiction of human and animal forms holds true for religious art and architecture, in the secular sphere, such representations have flourished in nearly all Islamic cultures.

The Islamic resistance to the representation of living beings ultimately stems from the belief that the creation of living forms is unique to God, and it is for this reason that the role of images and image makers has been controversial. The strongest statements on the subject of figural depiction are made in the Hadith (Traditions of the Prophet), where painters are challenged to "breathe life" into their creations and threatened with punishment on the Day of Judgment. The Qur’an is less specific but condemns idolatry and uses the Arabic term musawwir ("maker of forms," or artist) as an epithet for God. Partially as a result of this religious sentiment, figures in painting were often stylized and, in some cases, the destruction of figurative artworks occurred. Iconoclasm was previously known in the Byzantine period and aniconicism was a feature of the Judaic world, thus placing the Islamic objection to figurative representations within a larger context. As ornament, however, figures were largely devoid of any larger significance and perhaps therefore posed less challenge.

As with other forms of Islamic ornamentation, artists freely adapted and stylized basic human and animal forms, giving rise to a great variety of figural-based designs. Figural motifs are found on the surface decoration of objects or architecture, as part of the woven or applied patterns of textiles, and, most rarely, in sculptural form. In some cases, decorative images are closely related to the narrative painting tradition, where text illustrations provided sources for ornamental themes and motifs. As for manuscript illustration, miniature paintings were integral parts of these works of art as visual aids to the text, therefore no restrictions were imposed. A further category of fantastic figures, from which ornamental patterns were generated, also existed. Some fantastic motifs, such as harpies (female-headed birds) and griffins (winged felines), were drawn from pre-Islamic mythological sources, whereas others were created through the visual manipulation of figural forms by artists.
End quote from:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/figs/hd_figs.htm

Kwaw